lokelani Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 (edited) Hi all, I really need some help with my boy. He has been a naughty lad lately, mostly with toileting in the house, and I am trying to figure out if it has anything to do with his anxiety. This is strange for him, because he is completely toilet trained, and has been since he was a pup. (he is now 2) Even at 8 weeks old he slept through the night with no problems, and it took him a very short time to learn to go to the door if he did need to go. Bit of background.... Bosco has seperation anxiety issues. He is kept in a run whenever I am not home (work etc) as I cant leave him in the house because he is likely to do a lot of damage (In the past he has torn up carpet and eaten straight through a door!) I cant leave him in the yard, because he jumps, and I mean he will jump anything! He seems to be quite content in his run, although I think he just sleeps in his kennel all day. Anyway, this toileting in the house all started a couple of months ago when I went to the coast for the weekend. I couldnt take Bos, because I had no where to keep him (for the above mentioned reasons) and if I ever need to be away for a night, then I need someone to actually come to my house and babysit, again for the above reasons. If I took Bos anywhere, he would escape, so when I went away, my brother looked after him for me. And no, there is no way my brother would ever hurt him, but Im thinking that maybe he was "getting back at me" for leaving him for the weekend? When I got back, every night for about a week, I would wake up to a present (he does both!) and he always does it in the middle of the night, so I never actually catch him in the act. And I always take him out before bed, although he doesnt always go! Also, he will not toilet in his run. Every day when I get back from work and let him out, he bolts for the garden so he can go! I also have a bad feeling that he wont eat or drink in his run. I have left toys with food in them for him during the day, and he doesnt touch it until I get home. Also, the water levels in his bowls never seem to change, and he always has a big drink when I let him in the house??? Anyway, the toileting eased off after about a week, but he would still do it every now and again, but then last friday night, I had to stay at mums house (it was my sisters wedding on Saturday) so again my brother babysat, and again he has been toileting in the house! Not only is this frustrating because he is apparently toilet trained, but the house is starting to stink! I have tried cleaning it with vinegar, and I even hired a cleaner from Woolies to try to fix it, but that didnt work. I understand that once I get the smell out it may not be as bad, but I think I am going to have to actually get professionals in. I thought I was lucky in one respect that Bosco still squats, so at least he isnt peeing on all the furniture, but when I woke up this morning, it looks like he has cocked his leg on the curtains!!! Little bugger. Sorry for the long post, but I dont know what to do. When he does go outside, I praise him, and if I caught him in the act, I would go back to the basics, but he seems to be sooo sneaky! Any advice will be more than welcome. I am renting at the moment, and its my cousins house, so I really dont want to destroy the carpet because my dog has decided to be an ass. I have not had this problem before. Thanks in advance. ETA - The weekend I went to the coast is the first time ever that I have left Bosco alone..... Edited February 18, 2008 by lokelani Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooper Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 Cheeky bugger he is ... Where is he sleeping at night? It sounds like he has the run of the house, so obviously containing him will reduce the problem. Do you have a crate? You're welcome to borrow Jack's big one and see how the princess goes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokelani Posted February 19, 2008 Author Share Posted February 19, 2008 Hey Moops - Yep, he has run of the house, as he has always had.... Thats why its all a bit strange, because nothing has changed at all Except for the fact that I left the poor boy alone for a couple of nights I have a crate at home big enough. I will pull it out and try that for a while. I just hope that he doesnt cry all night! (which is likely) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muttaburra Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 I think the key here is complete removal of every trace of scent of urine. On TV shows I have seen them use a hand-held Ultra Violet lamp to locate where the marks are. Some commercial products are available to help eradicate all scent, also you can sprinkle with bicarb soda, then pour on vinegar and it fizzes the matter to the surface, this can be repeated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 (edited) Does he perceive you as leader? The "leader" has the responsibility of protecting the pack. If the dog perceives itself as leader, anxiety can rise when the 'pack' leaves as the dog is precluded from being able to fulfill this instinctive role. In addition, soiling inside could be his way of re-affirming his heirarchy status, which might have become insecure with the changes of environment. In turn, it can become a learnt behaviour encouraged as a result of the scent left behind in the soiled areas. ETA: What was he like at your brother's house, when he stayed there? Edited February 19, 2008 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokelani Posted February 19, 2008 Author Share Posted February 19, 2008 Thanks for the replies everyone IDWT - I know that I really need to get the smell out, and that that is probably a big part of the problem. Erny - I think he sees me as the leader. Not very confident I know, but he does know that when I say something, he has to do it. I have tried everything to make myself the leader, to making him wait at the door until I go in first, waiting for his meals, and we do some training and stuff at home as well. He is allowed on the furniture etc, but generally when I say so, but in saying that, he is in no way dominant. If I ask him to stop something, or get off, he does. He didnt actually stay at my brothers - my brother stayed at my house to look after him, and he did not soil in the house while my brother was there, only the next day when I got home! His anxiety has been something that started since he was a pup. He was born in foster care, and was the runt of the litter and almost didnt survive, so from what I can tell, the foster carer actually hand raised him for a few weeks, which is why I think he has more of an attachment to people rather than other dogs. I didnt help the matter when he was a pup, but I have been trying to stop that sort of behaviour from myself for about 18 months. I still spoil him abit, but I try to let him know that he is still a dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Her Majesty Dogmad Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 Such anxiety needs vet treatment I think or at least some professional treatment. Yes, they can soil the house to get back at you - one of mine does it if I try to come home from work, walk/feed them and then go out. He will lift his leg every time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokelani Posted February 19, 2008 Author Share Posted February 19, 2008 Dogmad, I do actually agree with you. I have been wanting to see a behaviourist for a while, its just a matter of the funds. When my other dog died last year, he was so scared and upset that he ate through my dads solid wood gate (I was in Melbourne at the time, and this is the reason his run was built!) He went to the vets and was put on clomicalm, and after a while, the vet said to take him off it. It took a while for him to settle, but once he did he seemed to go back to his normal self (as normal as he could be) I have noticed that if I leave the house and he is inside (with someone else there) he will cry and howl, apparently until I get back, but he does not do that in his run. He is very quite when he is in there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooper Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 Crating won't fix the problem, but I think it's worth a try to at least avoid the soiling while you get cracking on cleaning products. If he's not used to it, be sure to make the crate a happy, positive experience Are you still doing agility training? That would have to help in the leadership stakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokelani Posted February 19, 2008 Author Share Posted February 19, 2008 I bought the crate especially for Agility, because whenever I had to tie him up he would howl like he was being murdered! He actually seems happy in a crate (providing its open), I think it is similar to his run, like a little sanctuary. If I ever had one lying around open, he would go and lie down in there, but as soon as I close the door, I need to cover it so he cant see me. That seems to be one of the problems, if he can see me, but cant get to me, he gets agitated..... I am not doing agility any more though. I might go back to it later, because all he wanted to do was play with the other dogs. He would listen to me, but I think he needs to 'grow up' a little more, he is still very much like a pup! And I think I wasnt enjoying it very much, which is no good for him if I dont enjoy it.... We are still doing obedience though, because he loves that, and he is really good with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loraine Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 It may have something to do with separation anxiety - my dog is also toilet trained and has his own door. When I have had to go out for an appointment and leave him home he has pooped in the house right in the middle of a room. He knows he has done wrong and never does it when I am home. I think it is just to get back at me :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokelani Posted February 19, 2008 Author Share Posted February 19, 2008 It may have something to do with separation anxiety - my dog is also toilet trained and has his own door. When I have had to go out for an appointment and leave him home he has pooped in the house right in the middle of a room. He knows he has done wrong and never does it when I am home. I think it is just to get back at me :rolleyes: Thats the problem with my boy - I would love to have a doggy door for him, but I am way too scared to let him have access to the yard on his own. When he got out and disappeared for 2 days about a year ago, I had only let him out for a wee... Went to let him in and he was gone. Ever since then I literally watch him go to the toilet and stay with him. I am not sure if he would jump if I was around, but if I was asleep and he got a fright, there is no guessing about it - he would be gone! I have put down almost two packets of bicarb soda for the night to try to get rid of some of the smell. I am a bit worried about the vinegar, because since I used it last, the smell seems to be a bit stronger, like a mix of wee and vinegar! So I will see how the night goes.... Thanks for all the replies everyone, I really hope that I can resolve this soon, for both of our sakes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxx'sBuddy Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 if at all possible it would be great to have a behaviouralist help you. IMO dogs never try to "get back at you". getting back at people is a human emotion that dogs simply do not have. if you think he is trying to "get back" at you then the dog may sense you have some resentment toward it and this may excacerbate the problem. if my dog has an accident in the house then I know am not being vigilant enough so maybe you need to go back to basics and contain the dog if you can't supervise and take out regularly for toilet breaks. maybe this will reinforce the behaviour you want. i haven't tried this but some people, if their dog has an accident, yell at the wee or pooh and tell it off for being there. ut is important not to look at the dog when you do this but make sure the dog sees you telling the wee or pooh off!!! i have been told this has worked for them, especially if you can't catch the dog in the act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 Does he perceive you as leader?The "leader" has the responsibility of protecting the pack. If the dog perceives itself as leader, anxiety can rise when the 'pack' leaves as the dog is precluded from being able to fulfill this instinctive role. In addition, soiling inside could be his way of re-affirming his heirarchy status, which might have become insecure with the changes of environment. In turn, it can become a learnt behaviour encouraged as a result of the scent left behind in the soiled areas. I agree here... Sounds as if some leadership needs to be re/instated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokelani Posted February 19, 2008 Author Share Posted February 19, 2008 if at all possible it would be great to have a behaviouralist help you. IMO dogs never try to "get back at you". getting back at people is a human emotion that dogs simply do not have. if you think he is trying to "get back" at you then the dog may sense you have some resentment toward it and this may excacerbate the problem.if my dog has an accident in the house then I know am not being vigilant enough so maybe you need to go back to basics and contain the dog if you can't supervise and take out regularly for toilet breaks. maybe this will reinforce the behaviour you want. i haven't tried this but some people, if their dog has an accident, yell at the wee or pooh and tell it off for being there. ut is important not to look at the dog when you do this but make sure the dog sees you telling the wee or pooh off!!! i have been told this has worked for them, especially if you can't catch the dog in the act. Hi Jaxx'sBuddy - Welcome to DOL I know that the whole getting back at me is a human emotion, and I can guarantee you that I have absolutely no resentment towards my dog. It was actually a bit of a shock to me when he first started doing this, because he has been so good up until recently! The problem is, he is doing it when I am asleep, and I would love to go back to basics, but I never catch him in the act, so it is hard to correct the problem right there. And I do take him out all the time. He goes out about 5-6 times a night from the time I get home to the time he goes to bed (I smoke, so everytime I have a smoke outside, he comes with me...). I am going to try to contain him in a crate until I can resolve the problem, but I have hurt my back, again, and the crate I have is extremely heavy. I am going to get my brother over tomorrow night to get it out for me. I personally dont believe in negative re-inforcement (yelling for him making an accident) but as I said, I have not been able to even catch him in the act to even correct it. This is where my problem is, because I cant stop him in the act and then take him out to "finish" his business so to speak :rolleyes: I really, really want to get a behaviourist in, if not just for the toileting issues, but his anxiety, for his sake. I just need to find a good one, and the funds to have it done. I know it is the best thing for him, because all I want is for him to be happy, and I have realised that perhaps he is not entirely happy with the way he has been behaving recently, more so that before, and that really does upset me. I dont want my dog to be unhappy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokelani Posted February 19, 2008 Author Share Posted February 19, 2008 Does he perceive you as leader?The "leader" has the responsibility of protecting the pack. If the dog perceives itself as leader, anxiety can rise when the 'pack' leaves as the dog is precluded from being able to fulfill this instinctive role. In addition, soiling inside could be his way of re-affirming his heirarchy status, which might have become insecure with the changes of environment. In turn, it can become a learnt behaviour encouraged as a result of the scent left behind in the soiled areas. I agree here... Sounds as if some leadership needs to be re/instated. I am starting to think that perhaps I am not the leader I thought I was :rolleyes: In a good way. It seems very obvious that I need to learn more about being the leader than I thought I did.... This is just something that is so out of the norm for him, and I thought maybe it had something to do with his anxiety. I guess it could be a mix of the two? Thanks again everyone for all the replies. It is really helpful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxx'sBuddy Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 if at all possible it would be great to have a behaviouralist help you. IMO dogs never try to "get back at you". getting back at people is a human emotion that dogs simply do not have. if you think he is trying to "get back" at you then the dog may sense you have some resentment toward it and this may excacerbate the problem.if my dog has an accident in the house then I know am not being vigilant enough so maybe you need to go back to basics and contain the dog if you can't supervise and take out regularly for toilet breaks. maybe this will reinforce the behaviour you want. i haven't tried this but some people, if their dog has an accident, yell at the wee or pooh and tell it off for being there. ut is important not to look at the dog when you do this but make sure the dog sees you telling the wee or pooh off!!! i have been told this has worked for them, especially if you can't catch the dog in the act. Hi Jaxx'sBuddy - Welcome to DOL I know that the whole getting back at me is a human emotion, and I can guarantee you that I have absolutely no resentment towards my dog. It was actually a bit of a shock to me when he first started doing this, because he has been so good up until recently! The problem is, he is doing it when I am asleep, and I would love to go back to basics, but I never catch him in the act, so it is hard to correct the problem right there. And I do take him out all the time. He goes out about 5-6 times a night from the time I get home to the time he goes to bed (I smoke, so everytime I have a smoke outside, he comes with me...). I am going to try to contain him in a crate until I can resolve the problem, but I have hurt my back, again, and the crate I have is extremely heavy. I am going to get my brother over tomorrow night to get it out for me. I personally dont believe in negative re-inforcement (yelling for him making an accident) but as I said, I have not been able to even catch him in the act to even correct it. This is where my problem is, because I cant stop him in the act and then take him out to "finish" his business so to speak :rolleyes: I really, really want to get a behaviourist in, if not just for the toileting issues, but his anxiety, for his sake. I just need to find a good one, and the funds to have it done. I know it is the best thing for him, because all I want is for him to be happy, and I have realised that perhaps he is not entirely happy with the way he has been behaving recently, more so that before, and that really does upset me. I dont want my dog to be unhappy! sorry i wasn't clear...you don't yell at the dog, you yell at the pee or pooh as if it has crawled in from outside and doesn't belong in the house!!!!! you let it know that it belongs outside and never in the house....you make a lot of fuss telling it off...probably best not to have your neighbours see as they may think you're going nuts!!! i knew someone who did this once and never had another accident inside. as i said, i haven't tried this but it did seem like you had tried everything and this was a bit left field. i agree with you, i never yell at my dog and i don't use negative re-inforcement. good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokelani Posted February 19, 2008 Author Share Posted February 19, 2008 (edited) if at all possible it would be great to have a behaviouralist help you. IMO dogs never try to "get back at you". getting back at people is a human emotion that dogs simply do not have. if you think he is trying to "get back" at you then the dog may sense you have some resentment toward it and this may excacerbate the problem.if my dog has an accident in the house then I know am not being vigilant enough so maybe you need to go back to basics and contain the dog if you can't supervise and take out regularly for toilet breaks. maybe this will reinforce the behaviour you want. i haven't tried this but some people, if their dog has an accident, yell at the wee or pooh and tell it off for being there. ut is important not to look at the dog when you do this but make sure the dog sees you telling the wee or pooh off!!! i have been told this has worked for them, especially if you can't catch the dog in the act. Hi Jaxx'sBuddy - Welcome to DOL I know that the whole getting back at me is a human emotion, and I can guarantee you that I have absolutely no resentment towards my dog. It was actually a bit of a shock to me when he first started doing this, because he has been so good up until recently! The problem is, he is doing it when I am asleep, and I would love to go back to basics, but I never catch him in the act, so it is hard to correct the problem right there. And I do take him out all the time. He goes out about 5-6 times a night from the time I get home to the time he goes to bed (I smoke, so everytime I have a smoke outside, he comes with me...). I am going to try to contain him in a crate until I can resolve the problem, but I have hurt my back, again, and the crate I have is extremely heavy. I am going to get my brother over tomorrow night to get it out for me. I personally dont believe in negative re-inforcement (yelling for him making an accident) but as I said, I have not been able to even catch him in the act to even correct it. This is where my problem is, because I cant stop him in the act and then take him out to "finish" his business so to speak :rolleyes: I really, really want to get a behaviourist in, if not just for the toileting issues, but his anxiety, for his sake. I just need to find a good one, and the funds to have it done. I know it is the best thing for him, because all I want is for him to be happy, and I have realised that perhaps he is not entirely happy with the way he has been behaving recently, more so that before, and that really does upset me. I dont want my dog to be unhappy! sorry i wasn't clear...you don't yell at the dog, you yell at the pee or pooh as if it has crawled in from outside and doesn't belong in the house!!!!! you let it know that it belongs outside and never in the house....you make a lot of fuss telling it off...probably best not to have your neighbours see as they may think you're going nuts!!! i knew someone who did this once and never had another accident inside. as i said, i haven't tried this but it did seem like you had tried everything and this was a bit left field. i agree with you, i never yell at my dog and i don't use negative re-inforcement. good luck! I think my neighbours thing I am loopy anyhow! Thanks Jaxx'sBuddy - I do now get where you are coming from. I guess it is going to take time, and even just yelling seems to upset Bos, whether it is directed at him or not, which is weird in a way, because I have had him from a pup, and he has not had a bad past so to speak, unlike many rescue dogs (my past girl included) I have realised that I still have a lot to learn. I have owned my "own" dogs for just over 2 years now, and I have learnt so much from being on here, but it is very clear that I still have so much to learn. As I said earlier, I just want a happy dog, and I am willing to do what it takes, even if it does send me broke (which it almost has with this boy already) Edit: Cos I cant spell! Edited February 19, 2008 by lokelani Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxx'sBuddy Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 one thing i do is never let my dog see me clean up any accidents in the house and i don't let her see me pick up her poo from the garden. i don't know if this is right but i figure a pack leader doesn't clean up after the pack. also, i don't want her to think that i am interested in her poo in case wants to be nice to me and she leaves me a present!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokelani Posted February 19, 2008 Author Share Posted February 19, 2008 one thing i do is never let my dog see me clean up any accidents in the house and i don't let her see me pick up her poo from the garden. i don't know if this is right but i figure a pack leader doesn't clean up after the pack.also, i don't want her to think that i am interested in her poo in case wants to be nice to me and she leaves me a present!!!!! When my boy goes in the house, it is a bit hard to not let him see me (because of the fact that I am paranoid about leaving him alone) but when I am cleaning up, I never make a fuss. I just clean it up and thats it. I figure, if I dont catch him doing it, there is no point in making a fuss, cos he wont know what I am going on about. He might see me cleaning up, but I dont make contact with him while I am doing it. When I clean up the poop in the yard, he is usually inside - again because I dont feel comfortable leaving him alone if I cant watch him 100%. When I first moved into this house, I was out the back with him (the fences on the back are only about 4 ft high), and he literally decided that it was a good chance to jump. If I wasnt there to stop him he would have been over the fence in a flash, and I was right there with him! I am so glad that I was there.... I know its a little OT, but it gives a bit of background as to how bad he can be with new surroundings, and now more so, being alone! Good doG, I need some help :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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