Taking Turns As To Who He Respects More?

[sas]

Our 11 month old Dane has always been a handful, he's an interesting one to learn from that's for sure.

When he's frustrated i.e. during a training session because he doesn't understand or perhaps just wants the treat or when he doesn't get what he wants he will jump at us, sometimes followed by a hump and sometimes soft mouthing.

We're getting there....it seems like its' taking sometime, the behaviour in itself arrose at sexual maturity some 3 months ago.

So, this evening, I did a 5 minute clicker session with him, he did really well. He jumped at me once but complied when I asked for a command, usually he would just keep jumping and being rude.

As soon as the session finished he went over to my OH who was sitting at his computer and started pawing him, OH ignored him, Dante harsseses more and then starts to jump and mouth.

Any ideas what that is about? Dante wouldn't normally just approach my OH and start harssessing him without the frustration factor as mentioned above.

Some background info. We follow NILIF and are pretty firm with him as he is a very pushy bugger. Physical repremands serve no purpose to him - simply doesn't care, anything less than calm and he feeds off it.

Prior to the clicker session he'd had an hour walk, wasn't totally buggered but enough to come back and relax.

Edited February 18, 2008 by sas

[Erny]

As soon as the session finished he went over to my OH who was sitting at his computer and started pawing him, OH ignored him, Dante harsseses more and then starts to jump and mouth.

Extinction burst is happening there. Very important that the increased behaviour does not achieve your boy's behaviour (your dog's behaviour that is .... not your OH's).

I'd say your dog is still exploring and testing boundaries and heirarchy status .... working out in HIS opinion, where he 'fits' in.

Edited February 18, 2008 by Erny

[sas]

As soon as the session finished he went over to my OH who was sitting at his computer and started pawing him, OH ignored him, Dante harsseses more and then starts to jump and mouth.

Extinction burst is happening there.

I'd say your dog is still exploring and testing boundaries and heirarchy status .... working out where he 'fits' in.

He's been doing that for a long time now. How we are handling it is simply putting him outside to calm down, if you arc up at him at all he gets worse.

[sas]

As soon as the session finished he went over to my OH who was sitting at his computer and started pawing him, OH ignored him, Dante harsseses more and then starts to jump and mouth.

Extinction burst is happening there. Very important that the increased behaviour does not achieve your boy's behaviour (your dog's behaviour that is .... not your OH's).

I'd say your dog is still exploring and testing boundaries and heirarchy status .... working out in HIS opinion, where he 'fits' in.

So instead of ignoring the pawing, he should have been put out at that stage?

[Erny]

He's been doing that for a long time now. How we are handling it is simply putting him outside to calm down, if you arc up at him at all he gets worse.

If his goal is to get your attention and interact with him, even if only to put him outside, then perhaps this is feeding his behaviour?

[sas]

He's been doing that for a long time now. How we are handling it is simply putting him outside to calm down, if you arc up at him at all he gets worse.

If his goal is to get your attention and interact with him, even if only to put him outside, then perhaps this is feeding his behaviour?

mmmm hadn't thought of it that way, come to think about it, he doesn't really care so much about being outside,he just goes and lays on his bed or chases moths.

Is there another method you would suggest?

We were putting him in his crate, however the largest size crate available now seems too small in length *arg*

[Erny]

So instead of ignoring the pawing, he should have been put out at that stage?

Really difficult to tell you what you should do, over the net. Numerous strategies are possible, but hesitancy to "advise" over the net is only because without knowing the dog in any way, it is impossible to assess whether this dog is likely to rise to the challenge of your strategy, or not.

Presuming there is no risk of injury to you or your OH, I'd probably be inclined to give the dog a swift physical correction - especially since this has been going on for a while, as you say, and he's not heeding any of the more subtle 'corrections' you've been applying.

But please heed my warning in the second para above.

Another possibility might be that you guys both quickly leave the room and shut the door behind you, leaving your dog there for a time. This can be incredibly inconvenient though (especially if it's the computer room and would deny you being on DOL ). But it would be an easier way of denying him ANY attention as the result of having to put him out.

I'd be doing more than just NILIF too. Apply TOT and make sure that the things you do for him are on your terms and that he can't perceive them to be on his. This includes walks, car rides, play and anything else he enjoys.

Seeing as this has been going on for a while, and if you're not sure of his responses to other strategies and whether you can handle them (as it stands, this would have to be your judgement), I'd recommend you get someone out there to have a look and advise.

Edited February 18, 2008 by Erny

[sas]

Thanks Erny.

We're seeing Steve next month....booked in when he hit sexual maturity (Dante not Steve) when this all started, but ya know Steve....always booked out for months!

I may be a little bit dense as I don't understand the written instructions for TOT, there are a few bits that I will need shown to me so hopefully Steve can run me through this.

I don't believe he (Dante) would rise to the challenge but hey you never know.

We have tried repremanding before without success, it's going to have to be a pretty decent repremand for him to listen and back down if you know what I mean.

Ok, for now, we'll exit the room on behaviours we're not happy with mmmm wonder if I'll spend all night outside lol Does it matter if I just go on the balcony where he can see me or should it before a bedroom door where he can't see me?

Edited February 18, 2008 by sas

[The Spotted Devil]

Sas, I've been following your posts about Dante for a while.....he sounds scarily like Ziggy He was the cutest puppy and lots of fun but was a complete pain in the @r$e until he was 6 months old and then intermittently so. My show trainer actually said he had never seen a more determined puppy, which at least made me realise I just had to work through it. Corrections are wasted on Zig too - much better to calmly ask him to "steady" or "leave" or "gentle".

My OH is a real softy and I've had to work very hard to train him at the same time Zig used to run to OH and act like a complete git if I had asked for a behaviour that he didn't want to produce - jumping all over him or humping a cushion. I've worked really hard to focus the "madness" and the energy and it has paid off - Zig has mellowed a little (14 months old) and is really starting to get a kick out of clicker training. About once a month (since he was 9 months) I go through another challenging phase with him (e.g. "la, la, la, I can't hear you, I'm not coming back") but each time it gets easier and easier. Now, sometimes, it's just a look that brings him back into line. The current challenge is his behaviour with visitors when I'm not in the room - he just regresses into behaviours of old so I crate him if I can't watch him. I've had a couple of experienced Dally people attempt to run him around a show ring but his behaviour is revolting (jumps head height (which he has never done with me), pulls, sniffs, looks miserable) and they swear I need a stronger collar on him. But for me, with consistency, patience and determination, he works like a charm on a loose material slip collar with heaps of pizazz!

It's bloody hard work but, seeing the results I have of late, I wouldn't have him any other way ;) Keep going and doing what you're doing - sounds like you'll reap the rewards sooner or later. Zig's personality has been exhausting at times but I've just spent nearly 2 months mostly resting in bed due to minor back surgery and he has been an absolute treasure.

Just reading Erny's replies as I'm typing - I go for isolation every time in the crate (very calmly and without a word)....works a treat for him because being around us and the cats is his thing. If I tried putting him outside or left him in a room, he'd probably destroy it

[sas]

Thanks for your reply I think it's the crazy spotted gene eh LOL

Dante has been a handful since day one LOL But I tell ya what, it's a never ending learning curve. I know we'll get there and it's us that needs to learn not him so to speak. I think after sorting him out we can take on the world LOL

The strangest thing is that he is absolutely fine in the ring, well behaved, he gets the 'can't be arsed' sometimes when gaiting but apart from that one of the most well behaved Dane youngsters in the ring.

Edited February 18, 2008 by sas

[The Spotted Devil]

LOL - how do you think I came up with my DOL user name

Zig is so excited in the ring he just about bursts! I love that energy, though, and therefore have been patient with him. He's a dog that will physically mature much later too. At our last show for '07, a handler behind me had a squeaky toy to hype her dog up. Zig needed that like a hole in the head He was trying to run forward with his head twisted about to get the squeaky toy but I just kept calmly asking and asking him to work. Eventually he got it together, won his class and RDCC - made my day

You're right - it's a brilliant learning curve. My last dog (ACD) was OTT too but in a very different way - she was like a jack in the box on red cordial and speed but was simply desperate to work for me....quite easy to focus her - I just wish I had been a better trainer!!!!!!

[Erny]

We're seeing Steve next month....booked in when he hit sexual maturity (Dante not Steve)

Steve's not old enough yet, is he?

Hope he doesn't take offence ..... just in jest, Steve

Ok, for now, we'll exit the room on behaviours we're not happy with ;) mmmm wonder if I'll spend all night outside lol Does it matter if I just go on the balcony where he can see me or should it before a bedroom door where he can't see me?

Where he can't see you. Do you really have no choice other than to go outside?

Mind you ..... I'm not convinced of this method. Just something 'benign' for you to try and something I know is not likely to present a challenge. If he's wanting your attention, this will at least give him the opposite and will mean you are safe from him escalating to mouthing. Of course, if his goal is he wants to send you to the sin-bin, then it won't work at all! .

But seriously - if you are going to try this, it needs to be done quickly. IE Don't wait for the behaviour to worsen before you abruptly leave. Do it at the first sign (eg pawing). And do it each and every time. If it is going to work, you should begin to see improved results after a few to several repetitions.

ETA: The thing about putting him outside is that it is not an "exclusionary" sin-bin. Some dogs hate it and it does prove to be a sufficient punishment. But some dogs are ok with it and may even not mind it. An "exclusionary" sin-bin is where there is no enjoyment to be had from the environment. I have suggested the toilet (close the lid; remove the toilet roll) for this purpose when it's been necessary .................. but me thinks it would be a bit crowded in there for your boy, even if I were to suggest it! Sin-binning can be good for some dogs and for some behaviours, but the tricky part is the dog understanding exactly what behaviour got him there in the first place.

ETA: Although I appreciate that it seems to have helped TSD, I'm not a fan of using the crate for a punishment, unless of course you don't plan on using the crate for any other purpose.

Edited February 18, 2008 by Erny

[The Spotted Devil]

ETA: Although I appreciate that it seems to have helped TSD, I'm not a fan of using the crate for a punishment, unless of course you don't plan on using the crate for any other purpose.

I absolutely know what you mean, Erny! He uses the same crate to sleep in when we travel and at shows so I wouldn't want him to associate it with a punishing experience. Perhaps it is more of a neutral effect for him? I *think* for Ziggy, it gives him a chance to calm down (because crate = sleep, relax) away from the stimulation - which may be something like the cats going beserk. I put him in there with no fuss and no corrections....just calmly and quietly and he comes out with so much more self-control.

[sas]

Where he can't see you. Do you really have no choice other than to go outside?

No, I have choice, I can just see and hear the TV from the Balcony

But seriously - if you are going to try this, it needs to be done quickly. IE Don't wait for the behaviour to worsen before you abruptly leave. Do it at the first sign (eg pawing). And do it each and every time. If it is going to work, you should begin to see improved results after a few to several repetitions.

Noted

ETA: The thing about putting him outside is that it is not an "exclusionary" sin-bin. Some dogs hate it and it does prove to be a sufficient punishment. But some dogs are ok with it and may even not mind it. An "exclusionary" sin-bin is where there is no enjoyment to be had from the environment. I have suggested the toilet (close the lid; remove the toilet roll) for this purpose when it's been necessary .................. but me thinks it would be a bit crowded in there for your boy, even if I were to suggest it! Sin-binning can be good for some dogs and for some behaviours, but the tricky part is the dog understanding exactly what behaviour got him there in the first place.

LOL yeah he can be a bit slow on the uptake sometimes.