Cosmolo Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 Ditto Amhailte- the reward is not being withheld upon completion of the exercise so the video shows +ve R. Punishment (positive or negative) reduces the likliehood of that behaviour occurring again so what behaviour are you trying to reduce?? The dog didn't do anything undesirable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 I'm a little confused here..... The video clip does not show any negative punishment just you controlling the dog before he got the reward. You did not remove anything from the dog (well not that I could see anyway). Are you referring to the way you taught the exercise?? Can I please ask, what do you mean that the "the 'greater' reward for the dog was complying to the commands"? How can complying with commands be a reward in itself? Ditto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 I'm a little confused here.....The video clip does not show any negative punishment just you controlling the dog before he got the reward. You did not remove anything from the dog (well not that I could see anyway). Are you referring to the way you taught the exercise?? I'm not sure, but I think he's referring to the way he initially taught the exercise, Kelpei-i. I think he's saying that the dog was taught that if it didn't obey the whistle, it would lose the chance to get the toy. So that was negative punishment. I agree that the video clip itself just shows positive reinforcement, as far as I can see anyway. The dog does what it's told, and it gets the reward it wants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 (edited) Ditto Amhailte- the reward is not being withheld upon completion of the exercise so the video shows +ve R. Punishment (positive or negative) reduces the likliehood of that behaviour occurring again so what behaviour are you trying to reduce?? The dog didn't do anything undesirable? Negative punishment reduces/weakens the behaviour of non compliance to the command. The reward is being withheld until the dog complies to the command.....so until the dog complies, it is being negatively punished....if that makes sense. Then when the dog complies, the reward is delivered and this is the +R portion of the progression. ETA: When you think about it, all 'reward based' training has negative punishment as its foundation. When we go about selecting the most potent reward for our dogs, we choose something that they will really want to work for, then we set up circumstances where we withhold that reward until the dog does what we want.....we subject the dog to negative punishment before we deliver the reward. Edited February 20, 2008 by Rom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 But the choice to use negative punishment or positive reinforcement is made after a command has been given, the dog makes a choice and then one or the other is used. The dog is not being punished from the moment the command is given? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 Negative punishment starts at the point where the dog shows a desire for the reward, but is prevented from getting it or the reward is withheld. The only way that negative punishment can be absent is if the dog has no desire for the reward, or what we percieve to be a reward is actually a neutral stimulus to the dog and in that instance not much would happen by way of learning because the dog would not be motivated by the stimulus. The command becomes a cue as to how the dog needs to behave in order to turn off negative punishment and attract positive reinforcement. K9's TOT is a good example. The dog is prevented from getting the reward and is encouraged to try on all behaviours in order to get it. Until it offers up the correct behaviour it is being negatively punished. Once it offers up the correct behaviour, that is marked and the dog is released to get the reward. All behaviours that do not deliver the reward weaken under the influence of negative punishment until the target behaviour is the only behaviour that the dog offers up in order to earn the reward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 By that theory, wouldn't that mean that dogs are being negtiavely punished extremely regularly- any time they want something from us? Punishment of any kind is a consequence to behaviour so i don't believe it can start in advance of the behaviour being offered? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 By that theory, wouldn't that mean that dogs are being negtiavely punished extremely regularly- any time they want something from us? Punishment of any kind is a consequence to behaviour so i don't believe it can start in advance of the behaviour being offered? Yes. :D The link in my opinion, shows many bad/good/bad/good consequences. Retrieving may not be the best example as the reinforcements vary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 Is this Denis as well? http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=...128174767790804 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 By that theory, wouldn't that mean that dogs are being negtiavely punished extremely regularly- any time they want something from us? Yes. That is why even 'reward based' training has its foundation in punishment...... Punishment of any kind is a consequence to behaviour so i don't believe it can start in advance of the behaviour being offered? We know that there are only 5 ways to categorise a stimuli. +P, -P, +R, -R or Neutral. So if the stimulus is not neutral to the dog then it has to be one of the other four. It can't be +R before the reward is delivered because at that point the reward is being withheld and we know that it can't be neutral to the dog if he is indicating a desire to have it. The stimuli can occur before the behaviour......does a dog scratch before the flea bites/annoys him, or after? Does a dog react before a startling event, or after it has been startled? In both of these examples the dog is moving from an area of discomfort to an area of comfort. The behaviour is an example of how he made that move. We do the same thing with rewards in training.....the dog wants the reward and he engages in a behaviour in order to move from the discomfort of not having it to the relative comfort of having it. If the dog does not comply to the command, you withhold the reward....but you are essentially extending the duration of the negative punisher.....the negative punisher didn't start at the moment of non compliance. All behaviours move through at least two of the elements in the motivational matrix in a kind of push me-pull me effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 Beautiful explanation Rom!! I wasn't looking at it in that sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denis Carthy Posted February 20, 2008 Author Share Posted February 20, 2008 (edited) LabloverThe link in my opinion, shows many bad/good/bad/good consequences. Retrieving may not be the best example as the reinforcements vary. Denis It might appear on the vids that eventually getting the ball after complying to each command is the greatest reward intensity to the dog - it's not the greatest reward to the dog, pack approval 'or' behaving as a subservient member of her pack duo throughout is the 'greatest intensity' reward...... The reason is simple, the ball is a prey drive stim, prey drive is a far weaker drive than pack drive and prey drive frequently exhausts, pack drive is functional and available 24/7, its the strongest most powerful of the drives excluding fight or fight drive, consequently no prey drive stimulus can overide a pack drive stim (command) if training through drive is done properly. But, that interpretation starts to show the flaws and weaknesses of operant learning theory interpretation of learning/teaching which excludes the internal state of the animal at any given time, the animals psychology etc and which cannot be consistently applied outside a lab under all circumstances at any given time without the use of a scientific instrument controlling the environment, the only scientific instrument capable of that in dog training is an e-collar, it controls the envioronment of the dog....... . Edited February 20, 2008 by Denis Carthy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 Hi Denis, Human psychology is not an exact science. That being said, I feel its use to animal, in our case canine, behaviour has limited merit, good for translation purposes. I judge my dogs by their behaviour at training and during competition. How we obtain the best from our dogs in the most humane manner, is my goal. Regarding pack drive. Depending on the dogs? Stock guarding dogs, sled dogs, dogs for the visually disabled etc etc etc. I know my labs would prefer to retrieve than be in pack drive, but.......I might be missing your point. A normal occurrence, might I add. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denis Carthy Posted February 20, 2008 Author Share Posted February 20, 2008 (edited) Is this denis tohttp://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=...128174767790804 Hi Lablover - yes its me on a cold mid winter day here........it was the first time I tried it with sound cam - I had a great learning experience for these mini vid things a couple of days ago - I learned 'never try and do something vid orientated unless your in the mood for it' - below New conclusions in drive theory :D click arrow bottom right for large screen http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=...641605491986200 . Edited February 20, 2008 by Denis Carthy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 It might appear on the vids that eventually getting the ball after complying to each command is the greatest reward intensity to the dog - it's not the greatest reward to the dog, pack approval 'or' behaving as a subservient member of her pack duo throughout is the 'greatest intensity' reward......The reason is simple, the ball is a prey drive stim, prey drive is a far weaker drive than pack drive and prey drive frequently exhausts, pack drive is functional and available 24/7, its the strongest most powerful of the drives excluding fight or fight drive, consequently no prey drive stimulus can overide a pack drive stim (command) if training through drive is done properly. Doesn't that depend on the dog, though? Won't some dogs just naturally have more prey drive than pack drive? Or won't many predatory dogs have moments when the excitement of prey drive just overrides pack drive? I know that K9Force (on this forum) does lots of his obedience training in prey drive and seems to get really good results. I'm sorry if the answer was in the video, I can't get sound where I am, so I could just see you talking without hearing you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 I know that K9Force (on this forum) does lots of his obedience training in prey drive and seems to get really good results. Hi Am Can I pop in here with a thought, even though I know your question is directed to Denis? Don't forget that with prey drive training, ideally we are teaching the dog that YOU own and control drive satisfaction, which comes back to pack drive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 Hi Am Can I pop in here with a thought, even though I know your question is directed to Denis? Don't forget that with prey drive training, ideally we are teaching the dog that YOU own and control drive satisfaction, which comes back to pack drive. Hi there again Erny! I don't know a heck of a lot about this stuff, but as far as I can see, when you're doing obedience in prey drive, the dog only works for you since you control the prey reward. He's not interested in your approval or affection, as such. He just sees obeying you as a means to an end - which is to earn the prey item. That doesn't really sound much like pack drive to me? Whereas it sounded to me that Denis was saying he worked his dogs ONLY in pack drive, and that he thought working in pack drive was the best reward for a dog, even better than getting prey drive satisfaction. But perhaps I completely misunderstood what he was saying, or am just confused? It's been known to happen, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 (edited) I see what you're saying Am ..... and what I say is merely my view but when a dog recognises the control you have of prey drive satisfaction, it leads to leadership (eg respect; regard) which in turn leads to (assuming absence) or can enhance pack drive. I'm not skilled at wording up on these topics and perhaps I'm wrong - I'd be interested in Denis' and K9 Force's views alike. Edited February 20, 2008 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 So what you're saying is, it's possible to work a dog in just prey drive, but that properly training in prey drive naturally tends to increase pack drive as well? That sounds pretty plausible to me. And perhaps that is just what Dennis meant, and I misunderstood him when I thought he said he only worked his dogs in pack drive? I too would love to hear what they both have to say on the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 Denis the end was funny. Hey you and I could be lookalikes, regarding hats. I call mine the Elmer Fudd hat. I wear the hat in trusted company on very cold days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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