Denis Carthy Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 (edited) OK - This is really a test to asses to try and find out if those not involved in the commercial side of training understand te meanings of common terminology used in dog training - I ask all those with a commercial, FT or PT, to hold off replying to this until 3 days after the post time: Question - Is the video exercise & explanation below a reward based or punishment based exercise? The purpose of training exercises and aligned such as this are to recall any dog from a chase or any highly tempting situation at the point any dogs is at its most ‘intense/highly motivated’ to carry out an action (biting jogger, sheep or lunging at another dog etc) and a reliable recall under all circumstances. Training ball throwing video shows – throws 1 – 3 - 4 Throw 1 – easy viewing The ball is thrown and the dog can chase after it as she wishes and return. Throw 2 – needs close, maybe repeat viewing. The ball is thrown as before, as the dog closes in on the ball, just as her head is going down to bite and recover it I give a whistle recall, as close as I can see from the video this is at, 00.47 on the video counter. My dog recalls to me on the whistle, as she closes a hand signal puts her to heel (not a competition heel) – she is then given the “break” command and goes to collect the ball, ball collected by dog at 01.03 on counter . Throw 3 – easy viewing The ball is thrown, no commands just play retrieve. Throw 4 – easy viewing The ball is accidentally thrown off camera so I don’t do a “ leave recall”, no commands just play retrieve. Throw 5 - needs close, maybe repeat viewing. Ball accidentally lands off camera – At the same point as the other recall, when she is about to bite and collect the ball I whistle recall my dog. She starts to come back to me and 02:10 on the counter I have blown a “down stay” command, she starts to go down and at 2:12 she is in the “down stay” position and has left the ball, the down is slow, because of her old leg injury. At 02:16 I give the vocal “break command” – she goes to get the ball and the exercise is over, she has won her ball reward and its hers to keep and do what she wants with. Video http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=...607008324730571 . Edited February 15, 2008 by Denis Carthy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 OK - This is really a test to asses to try and find out if those not involved in the commercial side of training understand te meanings of common terminology used in dog training -I ask all those with a commercial, FT or PT, to hold off replying to this until 3 days after the post time: Question - Is the video exercise & explanation below a reward based or punishment based exercise? The purpose of training exercises and aligned such as this are to recall any dog from a chase or any highly tempting situation at the point any dogs is at its most ‘intense/highly motivated’ to carry out an action (biting jogger, sheep or lunging at another dog etc) and a reliable recall under all circumstances. Training ball throwing video shows – throws 1 – 3 - 4 Throw 1 – easy viewing The ball is thrown and the dog can chase after it as she wishes and return. Throw 2 – needs close, maybe repeat viewing. The ball is thrown as before, as the dog closes in on the ball, just as her head is going down to bite and recover it I give a whistle recall, as close as I can see from the video this is at, 00.47 on the video counter. My dog recalls to me on the whistle, as she closes a hand signal puts her to heel (not a competition heel) – she is then given the “break” command and goes to collect the ball, ball collected by dog at 01.03 on counter . Throw 3 – easy viewing The ball is thrown, no commands just play retrieve. Throw 4 – easy viewing The ball is accidentally thrown off camera so I don’t do a “ leave recall”, no commands just play retrieve. Throw 5 - needs close, maybe repeat viewing. Ball accidentally lands off camera – At the same point as the other recall, when she is about to bite and collect the ball I whistle recall my dog. She starts to come back to me and 02:10 on the counter I have blown a “down stay” command, she starts to go down and at 2:12 she is in the “down stay” position and has left the ball, the down is slow, because of her old leg injury. At 02:16 I give the vocal “break command” – she goes to get the ball and the exercise is over, she has won her ball reward and its hers to keep and do what she wants with. Video http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=...607008324730571 . Reward based. Explanations and concerns not requested, so not included. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoemonster Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 Reward based I dont see any punishment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denis Carthy Posted February 17, 2008 Author Share Posted February 17, 2008 (edited) Anyone else want to offer an answer..? Edited February 17, 2008 by Denis Carthy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 Hi Denis ..... I'll come back to this when I can. :D Sorry - have been a bit stretched for time of late. Don't know if you can wait for me before you want to 'move on' from this? Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jillybean Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 what a long and confusing explanation of things! but i go with reward based.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seita Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 I was going to reply the other day but got sidetracked. I would say it is a reward based exercise as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 Hi Denis I cannot see any punishment being used here. From what I can see you are controlling the dog's drive/urge and rewarding him for leaving the object by allowing him to have it on your cue. We use a somewhat similar method to teach herding dogs to come off the sheep. Their reward for coming off is to allow them to go back in. It's controlling the dog's instinctual drive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 My answer's a little different, I think that it all depends on how you initially trained the exercise. If you trained the leave exercise using punishment ("you will leave the ball on the whistle or you will be corrected"), then it's both punishment and reward based. The dog leaves the ball to avoid punishment, but eventually gets rewarded by the break command. If you trained the leave exercise using reward only ("leaving the ball on the whistle is your best chance of achieving drive satisfaction") then it's a reward only based exercise. The dog is performing the entire time in order to maximise its chance of getting the reward. That's just IMO, and hopefully it will make sense to everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 (edited) I ask all those with a commercial, FT or PT, to hold off replying to this until 3 days after the post time:Question - Is the video exercise & explanation below a reward based or punishment based exercise? I presume us with 'commercial' interests in dog training can now respond? I think Amhailte is on the right track. The exercise you've shown in the video appears to be the result of your training. What's not been explained or shown is what action would be the result in the event your dog did not respond as required/commanded. As it stands though, I see the exercise as "reward based" .... you respond to command and you will receive reward (ie the ball/drive satisfaction). But I'll go back and look through it a second time ................ . Edited February 18, 2008 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 I can't see the video on this old computer but I'll throw out some thoughts: The four quadrants of the motivational matrix in my opinion cannot and do not exist in total isolation from each other. For example, you cannot effectively use positive reinforcement without there also being elements of negative punishment. Technically, (and also in my opinion)no training method can be called reward based because depending on the actions of the dog, the negative punishment portion of the progression may out weigh the positive reinforcement portion. Also, in the example of calling the dog off sheep, if the dog really wanted to keep working the sheep, could the command to come off not be seen as a positive punishment from the dogs point of view? So, if you called him off when he was making an excellent move, then might he not see that move as being an error? Then while he is being prevented from returning to the sheep, is he not being negatively punished? The command to return to the sheep becomes a negative reinforcer and actually being allowed to engage the sheep a positive reinforcer. My answer in direct regards to Denis' OP though would be that he is using all four quadrants of the motivational matrix. There is a direct hint in the below: The purpose of training exercises and aligned such as this are to recall any dog from a chase or any highly tempting situation at the point any dogs is at its most ‘intense/highly motivated’ to carry out an action (biting jogger, sheep or lunging at another dog etc) and a reliable recall under all circumstances. I'll admit to knowing something of Denis' training methods, however and would suggest that those that can see the video pay particular attention to the dog to see if there are any hints of it wearing training equipment.....of the remote style I'm assuming that the dog in the vid is a BC so there is a possibility that the equipment may not be clearly visible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 (edited) It's a Dobe, Rom. And from memory, not training equipment on. Went to go back to check but PC froze up and haven't re-tried yet. But yes ..... where there is positive reward there is negative punishment. I'm not sure if that's what Denis seeks by way of answer. ETA: As to whether the dog perceives being called off the ball as a punishment ..... that would in part depend on its pack drive as well. Edited February 19, 2008 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 I'll admit to knowing something of Denis' training methods, however and would suggest that those that can see the video pay particular attention to the dog to see if there are any hints of it wearing training equipment.....of the remote style I'm assuming that the dog in the vid is a BC so there is a possibility that the equipment may not be clearly visible. It's a Dobe, Rom. And from memory, not training equipment on. Went to go back to check but PC froze up and haven't re-tried yet. Bugger, well that'll learn me for being so smug, eh?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 The exercise you've shown in the video appears to be the result of your training. What's not been explained or shown is what action would be the result in the event your dog did not respond as required/commanded. That's what I meant, Erny just said it better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest murphy68 Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 Just a random thought here from a very novice trainer. Any chance that the whistle is a conditioned punisher? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 Just a random thought here from a very novice trainer. Any chance that the whistle is a conditioned punisher? That all depends on how the initial training of this was applied. Without knowing HOW this was achieved, it is difficult to answer. My answer's a little different, I think that it all depends on how you initially trained the exercise. If you trained the leave exercise using punishment ("you will leave the ball on the whistle or you will be corrected"), then it's both punishment and reward based. The dog leaves the ball to avoid punishment, but eventually gets rewarded by the break command.If you trained the leave exercise using reward only ("leaving the ball on the whistle is your best chance of achieving drive satisfaction") then it's a reward only based exercise. The dog is performing the entire time in order to maximise its chance of getting the reward. I don't think the OP asked the question regarding method of training used to achieve the result, rather the actual finished exercise as it stood. Well that's how I read it anyway!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 what a long and confusing explanation of things! Diet coke just went up my nose. I agree it is a very confusing video. Literacy exercise?????? No sound, I had to study as he placed the whistle in his mouth. I think is video is too vague. I should imagine Dennis, will be up and about, hopefully soon. What time is it in the UK - 5am??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denis Carthy Posted February 19, 2008 Author Share Posted February 19, 2008 (edited) Hi all - thought I'd give it a few days afore I got back. Yes without sound its more confusing, I got one with sound now. OK - its not reward based, it is all a negative punishment based exercise - there is no reward for the dog unless she caries out a known command - negative means something is 'removed or witheld' = no reward until she did something = she got nothing until she did what she was told EG's If you don't go to work you do not get paid etc, commonly used in some religious communities "If you dont do this you will not go to heaven etc". I asked because here in UK the real meanings of reward and punishment are virtually lost....out of interest, the 'greater' reward for the dog was complying to the commands. Thanks guys... . Edited February 19, 2008 by Denis Carthy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoemonster Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 OK see this is why I need to learn more about the terminology, I forgot about negative punishment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 (edited) OK - its not reward based, it is all a negative punishment based exercise - there is no reward for the dog unless she caries out a known command - negative means something is 'removed or witheld' = no reward until she did something = she got nothing until she did what she was told I didn't think there could actually be negative punishment without positive reinforcement. Because if there is no reward available to the dog for right behaviour, then you can't withold that reward for the wrong behaviour. So the two go hand in hand. At least that's my understanding of it all. Can I please ask, what do you mean that the "the 'greater' reward for the dog was complying to the commands"? How can complying with commands be a reward in itself? Edited February 20, 2008 by Amhailte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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