Advice Please - Titer Test Results In

[Guest Tess32]

I'd like some advice. The vet finally rang with Noah's titer test results for parvo after he received a Nobivac injection 11 days ago. He had the titer test at 7 days.

It has come back with a 1-5 ratio only, so they say he has sub-immunity and want to pay for another C3 AND titer test.

I don't know what to do? It's only 11 days after his vaccination and I don't want to give him ANOTHER C3 so soon? OTOH I've read that anything over 0 DOES have immunity?

[DeltaCharlie]

Ill ask around for you. Get back to you as soon as I know.

eta: Do you mind if I quote you exactly when I post in our clubs yahoo group? We are the ones running the study with Sydney Uni so I will see what Bea has to say.

Edited February 13, 2008 by DeltaCharlie

[Guest Tess32]

Yep that's fine, thanks.

[The Spotted Devil]

I'll be interested in the response....is this for your pup Tess32? How old?

[Guest Tess32]

Yep Noah. He had the C3 at 13 weeks, tested 7 days later. He's 14.5 weeks old now.

[The Spotted Devil]

He's adorable - have you seen Georgia the chiro yet?

I was doing some reading on vaccinations the other day and it seems the mother's antibodies can interfere up to 16 weeks of age. I thought it could take up to 2 weeks for the vaccinations to kick in anyway.....?

[Guest Tess32]

Yep I did, she was great she saw all three of my dogs!

I don't know whether to titer test again in a few days in there was a delay in seroconversion or whatever it's called, or simply vaccinate at 16 weeks, wait 10 days longer and titer test again.

[westielover]

Tess - if he was my puppy I wouldn't vaccinate again until 16 weeks and then a year later after that. From that point onwards I would only vaccinate every 3-4 years depending on titre results.

Whatever you - don't overload his system with unnecessary additional vaccines while he's so young - it could do more damage that good. You need to give his system time to strengthen. He won't develop immunity by vaccination alone - it will also come from environmental exposure. Is your pup a merle collie by any chance? Merle collies apparantly have a predisposition to adverse reactions to vaccines - so even more care should be taken when vaccinating.

These are the guidelines recommended by the testing labs:

Titres of less than 1:5 are considered seronegative and (re) vaccination is recommended. (Seronegative is a general term that means 'absent from the blood')

Titres of >1:5 are considered seropositive. (Seropositivity is the presence of a certain antibody in a blood sample).

Titres of >1:5 but <1:20 indicate that revaccination should be considered, especially if disease exposure risk is increased.

Dogs with titres of >1:20 probably do not require revaccination

I have also read that if a titre shows ANY antibodies, immunity is present. So a response of 1:5 may be considered by your vet as not good enough - but it shows that your pup has anitbodies present. If your vet is suggesting that your pup should have another vaccs now - I would be changing vets.

I have westies, and as everyone knows, westies are apparantly prone to skin conditions. I started questioning vaccines about 3 years ago - I started doing research and discovered that we are over vaccinating our animals and by doing this we are slowly killing them. Annual revaccination of dogs has been an industry norm that is being challenged due to increasing proof that protective immunity lasts for longer than one year (and often longer than 4 years) and the knowledge that vaccinations may in some cases have detrimental side effects ranging from anaphylaxis to immune-mediated disease. Some dogs who are vaccinated every year survive okay, while others have all sorts of problems inlcuding skin problems & allergies to this that and the other.

We, as humans don't need to be vaccinated every year for various diseases - why do our pets need to be vaccinated every year???

I haven't vaccinated by dogs for almost 3 years. I had my westies vaccinated for 5 & 4 years respectively - then I switched to annual titre tests. Their results have been coming in at a ratio of 1:80 for parvo & distempter for the past 2 years - this year will be the third titre test - so the results will be interesting. If I knew what I know now - I would have started titre tests when they were 2 years of age.

The other interesting thing I noted over the past couple of years is that neither of my westies caught kennel cough (or any other disease - not that I have had any parvo infected foster dogs) from any of the foster dogs who came through my house. 99% of the foster dogs who have come thru have been straight from the pound and have had kennel cough. I honestly believe it's because my dogs have a strong & healthy immune system which comes from reduced vaccinations and being on the BARF diet. (Kibble is another questionable subject which I could rave about - but won't now!!)

Everytime your dog is vaccinated - his immune system is 'weakened' temporarily. The vaccine contains the diease which the animal is being vaccinated against. The body doesn't know it's a vaccine - it thinks it's a real disease - so the body goes into 'fight' mode and responds accordingly, hence compromising the immune system temporarily. This can also be confirmed by the number of diminished white cells in the blood after a vaccine. Giving your puppy another vaccine now will only weaken his immune sytstem again. Personally, I would stick to the protocols suggested by Dr Jean Dodds:

8-10 weeks - Distemper & Parvovirus - MLV (modfied live virus) (I think minimum available in Australia would be C3) (Pups have their mothers immunity until they are 8 weeks of age).

14 weeks - as above

16-18 weeks - as above (optional)

1 year - as above

Annual titre tests after that.

A book I would highly recommend is 'Stop the shots! Are Vaccinations killing our pets?' by John Clifton. His book explains vaccinations, antibodies, antigens, titres etc in a manner which is very easy to understand. He doesn't suggest that we never vaccinate our pets again but he certainly makes you think about vaccinations and what they are doing to our pets.

Edited February 13, 2008 by westielover

[Rysup]

Why would you want to revaccinate such a young puppy? I would wait until his 16 week vacc and leave it at that until 1 year. After that I dont re-vacc at all.

[Guest Tess32]

I'm gonna ring them tomorrow and get them to fax over the results so I can check.

So would you guys still take him out and about at all before his 16 week?

Sorry thanks for the info westielover I have done some research though, I wasn't going to vaccinate at all after his one year, but I specifically chose nobivac so I didn't have to do a 16 week, so I was surprised it 'apparently' didn't work.

[Cavandra]

I'd like some advice. The vet finally rang with Noah's titer test results for parvo after he received a Nobivac injection 11 days ago. He had the titer test at 7 days.

It has come back with a 1-5 ratio only, so they say he has sub-immunity and want to pay for another C3 AND titer test.

I don't know what to do? It's only 11 days after his vaccination and I don't want to give him ANOTHER C3 so soon? OTOH I've read that anything over 0 DOES have immunity?

What age was the first one given? If it was too young ie 6 weeks that is the reason the level is low, as in theory he has only had one vaccination so far the first one has been "balanced out" but mothers immunity, so wont have done anything. I would have thought 7 days a bit quick to be doing a Titer also........

With this being said the 16 week shot & then testing a couple of weeks later should show you his correct levels. When in doubt contact Dr Jean Dodds in USA lots of peopel email her or send her their Titer blood from Australia.

[Guest Tess32]

Yep the first was given at 6 weeks. He had a parvac shot at 9 weeks, and the Nobivac C3 at 13 weeks.

The company itself offered me the free titer test at 7 days because apparently Nobivac is meant to have worked by then and you supposedly only need two shots overall. This is obviously untrue for some dogs.

I think I'll take them up on their offer and do the free test tonight in case 7 days was just too early, and if he still comes back with same results I'll vacc him at 16 weeks and then titer 2 weeks later.

I am really just annoyed because the Nobivac is meant to eliminate the need for the 16 week.

[~Anne~]

Westielover, where are you getting the titre tests done? What is the cost?

[westielover]

Westielover, where are you getting the titre tests done? What is the cost?

My vet at Nth Willoughby draws blood and then sends it off to a lab in Melbourne somewhere.

The first time I had a titre test done was at the Natural Vet at Five Dock - they had to send the blood to a lab in WA back then.

It usually costs me around $90 I think ..... a little more than the vaccination but I would rather do the tests annually or so than just vaccinate. I feel it's just too risky to keep vaccinating every year. I want my fur babies to live long and healthy.

My dogs don't get the annual heartworm injection either.

[westielover]

I'm gonna ring them tomorrow and get them to fax over the results so I can check.

So would you guys still take him out and about at all before his 16 week?

Sorry thanks for the info westielover I have done some research though, I wasn't going to vaccinate at all after his one year, but I specifically chose nobivac so I didn't have to do a 16 week, so I was surprised it 'apparently' didn't work.

Aaaaahhh - sorry Tess - didn't realise you had already done the research and why you had chosen the nobivac. It's scary reading about vaccinations and how potentially dnagerous they can be, hey!

[Guest Tess32]

I just got his results faxed to me and it says <1:5, but they don't specify if more than 0...

[Guest Tess32]

I'm gonna ring them tomorrow and get them to fax over the results so I can check.

So would you guys still take him out and about at all before his 16 week?

Sorry thanks for the info westielover I have done some research though, I wasn't going to vaccinate at all after his one year, but I specifically chose nobivac so I didn't have to do a 16 week, so I was surprised it 'apparently' didn't work.

Aaaaahhh - sorry Tess - didn't realise you had already done the research and why you had chosen the nobivac. It's scary reading about vaccinations and how potentially dnagerous they can be, hey!

That's ok Might have stopped someone else over-vaccinating! I'm still erring on the side of minimal vaccinations, but I can see the pros to no vaccinations at all.

[DeltaCharlie]

Okiedokie here we go.

This is the reply from Bea Miles (the main instigator of the sydney uni trial)

Hi Bec,

Thanks for sharing this.

Couple of things I've read about puppy vaccination:

1. Maternal antibodies to distemper and parvovirus can persit up to 14 - 16

weeks of age, and even at low levels, vaccine virus is blocked.

2. Vaccines can take several weeks to elicit an immune response. Testing just 7

days after the vaccine was administered may not have given the pup's immune

system enough time to respond.

3. Recommended revaccination intervals should be a 2 - 3 weeks.

4. Some dogs do not respond to vaccination - they are called non-responders;

they may have (cell-mediated) immunity without measurable antibody.

The Nobivac vaccine is registered in Australia with a duration of immunity claim

of 3 years. Throughout the world, however, this claim varies (1 - 3 years).

Intervet (the manufacturer) also claims that the final vaccination at 10 weeks

will protect the dog. You can download their blurb on this "new" vaccine on the

internet at www.Intervet.com.au/binaries/82_115226.pdf.

Do you know how old this puppy is, and what breed he is?

I don't think that the timing of the titre test - so soon after vaccination -

was ideal. As there is a titre, though, some response must have occurred in the

puppy, and he is on the "right track".

The W.A. lab where Jake's (and other PICSI dogs') titres were determined in the

past states "It has been shown that with this test, a titre of 1:5 is comparable

to the ... 1:80 titre of HAI (hemagglutination inhibition) for CPV. [These are]

considered the appropriate levels to provide protective immunity." Clearly, at

the measured titre of 1:5 in this puppy, it appears to have protection.

But, depending on his age, this might be residual maternal antibody !

It might be prudent to find out which lab carried out Noah's titre test.

I'm not sure how much detail info you will find on the VetPath (the W.A. lab

where the titre tests are run), but might be worthwhile checking out?

Personally, and depending on the age of the pup (under 4 months), I'd probably

play it safe and not take him to parks as yet; I'd rather run another titre test

in a month's time that have another jab administered.

Also, I believe the vet should have been aware of the fact that the immune

response can take a minimum 14 days after vaccination, and he/she should not

have run the titre test. I'd ask them to repeat the test, at their expense, in a

few weeks to see whether there has been a more robust response in the puppy.

This is my opinion only, of course.

Please let us know how Noah gets on...

Best of luck

Bea

This next bit is a little hard to read and incredibly long sorry. I haven't actually read it so I don't know whether it is applicable. I have one of those "cant understand anything you read" migraines today.

Vaccine SeminarWhat Everyone Needs to Know About Canine Vaccines and Vaccination

Programs Ron Schultz, Ph.D. University of Wisconsin¨CMadison The three most

important things to give a puppy, Dr. Ron Schultz said, are training, love, and

vaccines. The oldest and most common vaccine is the modified live vaccine (MLV).

It is made by taking a disease©\causing virus and altering, or attenuating, it

to a non©\disease©\causing virus that is still capable of immunizing. Because

natural infection or recovery from disease is the best kind of immunity, these

vaccines most resemble natural immunization, Dr. Schultz said. MLV is highly

effective and generally very safe for the species for which it was developed.

Vector vaccine (VV) is similar to MLV, but produced by genetic engineering that

usually incorporates DNA from more than one species of organism¡ªrecombinant DNA

technology. In the case of canary pox virus, two genes from the canine distemper

virus (CDV) are genetically engineered into a viral vector¡ªcanary pox¡ªthat

protects against distemper. ¡°Genetically engineered vaccines are the wave of

the future,¡± Dr. Schultz said. ¡°[They] are the way most new vaccines will be

developed, because we can better control what we do to the particular virus or

bacteria, and we can make a very effective vaccine.¡± To make MLV most

effective, it must become more like the virulent form of the virus, and is then

more likely to cause disease. Genetically engineered vaccines, on the other

hand, have no such inverse relationship between efficacy and safety. Both MLV

and VV are infectious vaccines, Dr. Schultz said. If the vaccines do not infect,

they do not immunize. The second most common form of vaccine is the so©\called

noninfectious variety. Inactivated or killed vaccines are this type. They are

made by treating a disease©\causing virus with a chemical or radiation to kill

it. The organism should retain its important antigens, and, its ability to

induce an immune response. Dr. Schultz said that sometimes the addition of an

adjutant, a substance that will enhance the immune response, is needed. Another

form of noninfectious vaccine is recombinant subunit vaccine. Recombinant

vaccines are produced through conventional technology: grow the organism,

inactivate it with a chemical, and then concentrate or separate out that portion

of the bacteria that is most immunogenic. The immune system is actually two

systems in one, Dr. Schultz said. The innate immune system, also called natural

or unspecific, is present from birth, protects against any substance, is

nonspecific, and is not enhanced by prior exposure. Stomach acid, cough reflex,

fevers, gut microflora, and even age are all examples of the innate immune

system. In contrast, the acquired¡ªalso known as adaptive or specific¡ªimmune

system is highly specific or tailored to a specific organism, and enhanced by

prior exposure. It involves a variety of organs, most especially the bone marrow

where many immune cells are made, and the thymus. Dr. Schultz said the acquired

immune system can be further subdivided into the humeral, or antibody mediated

system, and cellular, or cell mediated system. In the humeral system, bone

marrow cells contact antigens in the spleen, which produces antibodies. The

cells of the thymus become differentiated into a variety of T cells with a

variety of purposes. Immunologic memory allows the immune system to remember the

antigens or organisms to which it has previously been exposed. For example,

following exposure to CDV, a dog¡¯s immune system remembers for a lifetime that

it has been exposed to the virus. A dog¡¯s immunologic memory of CDV, canine

parvovirus (CPV), and canine adenovirus (CAV) guarantees long©\term immunity

against these diseases, similar to the long©\term immunity afforded humans who

have developed measles, mumps, or rubella. ¡°The number of cells and the kinds

of networking that has to go on to produce that immune response is incredible,¡±

Dr. Schultz said. ¡°Fortunately, we don¡¯t need to know much about this for the

vaccine to work. The body itself knows what to do.¡± In general, vaccines are

designed to stimulate the acquired, or adaptive, immune system. At times they

also can enhance nonspecific immunity. For example, intranasal kennel cough

vaccine contains bordetella and canine influenza virus (CIV), with or without

canine adenovirus©\2 (CAV©\2). The bordetella activates the nonspecific immune

system within minutes of the dog receiving the vaccine, he said. Although it is

not initially protecting the dog from bordetella, it is providing some

nonspecific defense against various viruses. Disease is dependent on the dose,

the route of exposure, the virulence of the particular organism, and the host

immune response. Dr. Schultz said innate immune response likely prevents

infection with about 90% of organisms capable of causing infection. The other

10% are handled by the adaptive immune response, which typically is more

efficient at battling viruses than the innate system. All canine vaccines will

stimulate both aspects of adaptive immunity¡ªhumeral and cellular. As is the

case for the measles, mumps, and rubella vaccination, Dr. Schultz said, the most

important factor for CDV, CPV, and CAV in dogs is the antibody. In a vaccinated

individual, the antibody either prevents infection or limits it so the disease

will not develop. Duration of immunity comes through the immunologic memory

cells, but the only way these cells respond is if the individual becomes

infected. Dr. Schultz said it is now known that some of the cell©\producing

antibodies called plasma cells are long©\lived. Instead of being present in the

peripheral lymphoid organs like the spleen and lymph nodes, they are present in

the bone marrow, and are programmed to continue to produce antibodies. If a

particular cell dies, it makes a new cell also capable of making that antibody.

This explains why dogs vaccinated against CDV, CPV, and CAV, and isolated to

prevent any chance of getting infected with these diseases, still have the

antibodies five to seven years later. In general, Dr. Schultz said, duration of

immunity is much longer for viruses than bacteria, and longer against a systemic

disease than a local mucosal disease. Since CDV, CPV, and CAV are all systemic,

viral diseases, the vaccine offers long©\term immunity. On the other hand,

bordetella¡¯s contribution to kennel cough is more of a mucosal disease and a

bacteria, so the immunity is short. MLV and recombinant VV provide a longer

duration of immunity than any of the killed subunit vaccines. Dr. Schultz

described the role vaccines played in reducing the number of deaths associated

with two diseases that have afflicted the canine species for hundreds, if not

thousands of years, before a vaccine was made. The first vaccines were made in

the late 1950s and early 1960s, he said. The introduction of canine distemper

vaccine led to significant reductions in the disease, though it has not been

completely eliminated. The original vaccine for canine adenovirus was

discontinued, after one in 500¨C700 dogs developed allergic reactions. However,

the second©\generation vaccine confers protection with no adverse reactions. As

a result, the United States has seen no cases of infectious canine hepatitis in

domesticated animals in 15 years, except for three dogs in a San Diego shelter

that had recently arrived from Mexico. The disease is still prevalent in

countries and regions with lower vaccination rates. Canine parvovirus first

appeared in the late 1970s and ¡°caused very, very high mortality before we

really got a vaccine that worked,¡± Dr. Schultz said. Although the disease is

far from being eliminated, immunization has led to a marked reduction in the

number of parvovirus cases and resulting deaths. Meanwhile, the past few years

have seen a change in veterinary medicine¡¯s philosophy of vaccination. Until

recently, the predominant view was that every pet should receive every licensed

vaccine multiple times at an early age, then at least annually through

adulthood. Dr. Schultz said most vaccines were combined in a single syringe for

the owner¡¯s convenience, ¡°not to worry about the animal itself being blown out

of the water with 12©\way, 14©\way mombo combos.¡± Practitioners assumed that

even a vaccine that did not help would not hurt and, to this day, the labels on

all USDA©\approved vaccines specify annual boosters, regardless of the immunity

they actually provide. ¡°It is an arbitrary and capricious statement,¡± Dr.

Schultz said, but the requirement is a part of the Federal Code and can only be

changed by Congress. Historically, vaccine recommendations came from a committee

of the American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA). However, after the

American Association of Feline Practitioners published its first set of vaccine

guidelines in 1998, AVMA left it up to specialty groups to do the same for other

species. A group of clinicians and practitioners published the first canine

recommendations in 2003, with administrative support from the American Animal

Hospital Association (AAHA). The guidelines were updated in 2006, and are

available at www.aahanet.org. For the first time, the document lists the core

vaccines¡ªdistemper, adeno, parvo, and rabies¡ªthat should be administered to

every dog. ¡°And we did mean ¡®every,¡¯¡± Dr. Schultz said. Although the United

States probably vaccinates more dogs than any other country, its coverage is

only about 50%.With another 20¨C©\25% ¡°we could, for all practical purposes,

eliminate these diseases, because we would have so much better herd immunity.¡±

The main difference in 2006 was the recommended interval. The latest guidelines

call for a last dose of core vaccine at 14¨C16 weeks, then at one year of age,

then no more often than every three years. The exception is the rabies vaccine,

which must be administered every three years. Optional vaccines for conditions

like leptospirosis and bordetella are only recommended if an animal is at risk,

but none of them provide more than a year of immunity. Dr. Schultz advised that

if a dog requires one of the optional vaccines, ¡°make sure it¡¯s getting it

often enough to get the protection you think it needs.¡± For rabies, dogs

require the first dose of vaccine at 12¨C16 weeks, then a year later, then every

three years. A handful of states still require annual revaccination for rabies,

but ¡°that¡¯s absolutely absurd. The law should be changed. There¡¯s no

immunologic or public health benefit,¡± and ¡°you as a dog owner can help make

that change.¡± Since the minimum duration of immunity for the core vaccines is

seven to 10 years, revaccinating every three years adds no benefit and increases

the risk of adverse reactions. Those reactions are rare, but ¡°it is not

acceptable if an animal gets an injectable that is not needed and develops

disease or dies.¡± To determine the duration of immunity, the gold standard is

to challenge with virulent agents. For an upcoming rabies vaccine study with

which Dr. Schultz is involved, ¡°the only way the results will be considered by

the USDA and validated is by having a control group of dogs that will be

challened, and 80% of them must die from rabies for it to be a valid challenge.

And then we will have to show the efficacy in the vaccinated group.¡± He

recalled a recent three©\year study of a recombinant feline rabies vaccine that

reported 100% protection in the vaccinated group, but only 79.3% mortality in

the control. ¡°That was unacceptable according to the Federal Code, so they¡¯ve

had to start the study all over again.¡± Recent vaccine trials have shown

long©\term immunity of more than seven years for distemper and parvovirus, more

than three years with a canary pox©\vectored distemper vaccine, and more than

seven years for canine adenovirus with the second©\generation vaccine product.

Where studies demonstrate three years of immunity, the next steps will be to

test for five, then seven. Dr. Schultz said it is critical for veterinary

biological companies to endorse the three©\year immunization schedule, as they

have since 2004. ¡°The practitioner really relies heavily on the company that

supplies the vaccine. If anything goes wrong, they want to be backed up. If they

need diagnostics, the company will generally pay for them.¡± For the optional

vaccines, it is critical to balance the odds of infection and disease against

the risk of adverse reactions, while recognizing that treatment must be repeated

annually and efficacy cannot approach the core vaccines. He emphasized that

leptospirosis vaccines should never be combined with treatments for viruses, and

should never be administered before 12 weeks of age, because of the more

immediate need for viral immunity and the impact of the leptospirosis treatment

on a puppy¡¯s immune system Similarly, practitioners should avoid mixing viral

immunizations with the vaccine for bordetella bronchiseptica. The treatments

should be administered on opposite sides of the animal, so that they affect

different lymph nodes. Canine influenza virus jumped from horses to dogs in

2004, but Dr. Schultz said there was never any risk that influenza would become

the next canine parvovirus epidemic. ¡°Parvo is extremely environmentally

stable, it¡¯s impossible to get rid of, it lives in the soil for at least a year

or more, and remains infectious. Canine influenza is dead about the moment it

comes out of the dog,¡± so it seems to be most prevalent at Greyhound tracks, in

shelters, and in some canine day cares or kennels. AAHA specialists recommend

against vaccinating for canine coronavirus or giardia. If coronavirus eventually

emerges as a significant canine disease, most of the available countermeasures

will not work, since killed vaccines do not induce mucosal immunity. The issue

of antibody titres has generated a great deal of confusion, Dr. Schultz said.

Titres are often seen as a snapshot in time, but ¡°what I want to tell you is

that it doesn¡¯t matter with regard to distemper, parvovirus, and adenovirus. If

there is any antibody that has been actively produced as a result of natural or

artificial immunity, then the animal has immunologic memory and is immune.¡±

Younger animals should not be tested when there is any possibility of confusion

due to passive immunity. Otherwise, the interpretation of test results showing

low levels of immunity depends on which commercial test is used. For

leptospirosis, antibody titres are indeed a snapshot in time. It would be useful

if puppies could be tested two or more weeks after their last dose of core

vaccine to confirm immunity to ditemper and parvovirus, Dr. Schultz said.

Animals with no immunity could then be revaccinated and tested again after two

weeks. That will not be possible without a more user©\friendly, cost©\effective,

rapid test that could be used in veterinary offices. Apart from revaccination,

dogs often receive natural immunity through exposure to the core diseases. Dr.

Schultz said he worries most about a lap dog that spends its life in its

owner¡¯s apartment, before being placed in a kennel without being revaccinated.

¡°That dog is likely to be in a pretty risky situation of coming down with

severe kennel cough.¡± Although adverse reactions are rare, they are bound to

happen. ¡°When you inject something into yourself or your dog, there is always

the chance of adverse reaction,¡± he said. Reactions are considered rare if they

occur in less than one in 10,000 animals, uncommon at a rate of one per 1,000 to

10,000, and common if they are more frequent than one in 1,000. The biggest

¡°rude awakening¡± on adverse reactions in veterinary medicine occurred in the

late 1980s and early 1990s, with reports of injection©\site sarcomas in cats.

¡°No one ever suspected that a vaccine given to a normal, healthy kitten would

end up causing lethal cancer, and if you don¡¯t know, it can¡¯t be, right?¡± Dr.

Schultz said. ¡°You¡¯re convinced that a vaccine couldn¡¯t cause cancer, but it

did.¡± It turned out that felines lack the tumor suppression genes that would

act on an injection site that became neoplastic throughinflammation. The

research in this area helped shift the philosophy that vaccines cannot hurt,

even if they do not help. Anaphylaxis is a much more common adverse reaction,

but it has been known for 1000 years and veterinarians are trained to watch for

it. Dr. Schultz listed a series of other adverse reactions¡ªhives and facial

edema, arthritis and polyarthritis, autoimmune hemolytic anemia,

post©\vaccination encephalitis or polyneuritis, seizures, abortion, congenital

anomalies, embryonic or fetal death, failure to conceive, and transient immune

suppression¡ªin the five to seven days following a combined vaccination for

distemper and adenovirus. He urged participants to report adverse reactions to

veterinarians and vaccine manufacturers as a way of generating more reliale data

on their occurrence. Discussion A participant asked whether a 15©\month©\old

puppy should be immunized for leptospirosis along with its third dose of core

vaccinations. Dr. Schultz said he would recommend administering the viral

vaccines separately, following with the four©\way leptospirosis vaccine at 17

and 20 weeks, then revaccinating six and 12 months later. If the dog is really

at risk for leptospirosis, it should receive boosters every nine to 12 months.

The participant said she had never had her dogs vaccinated for leptospirosis in

the past. ¡°We¡¯re going through a period of leptospirosis,¡± Dr. Schultz

replied, ¡°but lepto is no more a risk today than it was 20 years ago.¡± He said

the disease is a concern in the participant¡¯s home region of northern Illinois,

at an incidence of one case per thousand or two thousand dogs. A participant

said mixed messages about titres have led to confusion for breeders and

veterinarians. Dr. Schultz said it is more important to test a puppy two weeks

after its last dose of core vaccine, rather than waiting until it reaches one

year of age. However, for veterinarians in search of a practice management tool

to ensure client compliance, his advice is ¡°by all means do titres. Do not

vaccinate. I have never seen an animal harmed from taking a blood sample. I have

seen harm brought to animals by giving them vaccines that they do not need.¡±

With immunization as a management tool, ¡°we have gotten the client to come in

annually or more often, because everyone knew these vaccinations had to be given

annually. We don¡¯t want to take away that annual visit, because it¡¯s

critically important. So maybe the titre or the dental exam will do that.¡±In

reply to a question about parvovirus vaccines, Dr. Schultz traced the

development of different parvovirus variants from the mid©\1980s through 2005.

Vaccines produced by the five major manufacturers are effective against all

variants. However, there is a ¡°window of susceptibility¡± when a puppy¡¯s

maternally derived antibody is insufficient to protect against infection, but

still high enough to interfere with active immunity from the vaccine. Generally,

that window has been reduced from 12 weeks to two, but it is still a factor.

¡°If you¡¯re in an environment where parvo is a real threat, like a shelter,

we¡¯ll still see a few cases, even though we vaccinate every two weeks,¡± he

said. ¡°The virulent virus gets in before the vaccine can prevent the

infection.¡± He recommended against relying on some of the more obscure products

available through catalogs. A participant described her successful effort to

eliminate giardia in her kennel, using a vaccine that veterinarians are hesitant

to use. Dr. Schultz said the treatment is not needed for the majority of dogs,

but that it makes sense in chronic cases where the benefit can be demonstrated.

¡°If it works, by all means use it,¡± he said; the treatment might eventually

find its way to his optional list if enough breeders can demonstrate its value.

The participant said it is unfortunate that veterinarians are hesitant to use

the vaccine where it is needed. Another participant asked whether there is

correlation between dogs being vaccinated at eight weeks and developing puppy

stranges. Dr. Schultz said he has seen reports to that effect, and that a

vaccine can contribute to the disease it is designed to prevent. A participant

asked whether bitches should be vaccinated prior to breeding. Dr. Schultz said

revaccination is not generally needed. If it is, it should take place prior to

estrus. Responding to a series of questions about vaccinations for toy breeds,

he said body size is less important with biologics than it is with

pharmaceuticals. For a vaccine, a Toy Poodle is as likely to need a full dose as

a Saint Bernard. He said most of the smaller toy breeds have difficulty with the

leptospirosis vaccine. A participant said she had heard conflicting reports on

the efficacy of rattlesnake vaccine. Dr. Schultz cited a veterinarian in

Colorado who had found the vaccine effective, based on considerable experience

with night rescues. He emphasized that the vaccine buys time, not immunity:

according to one emergency veterinarian, dogs have died because their owners

assumed their dogs were protected from rattlesnake bites and only sought

treatment after i was too late. A participant cited her veterinarian¡¯s advice

that parvovirus vaccine was unnecessary for a new litter of puppies born on a

property that had recently been infected, as long as the puppies were dewormed.

Dr. Schultz said an animal without intestinal parasites could still develop

parvovirus, though dogs with both are more likely to get severe disease and die.

A participant asked whether the core vaccines could lead to a high incidence of

autoimmune disease in specific breeds. Dr. Schultz said vaccines may trigger

autoimmune disease, but they do not cause it. If dogs do not receive their core

vaccines, he said, ¡°They won¡¯t go on to develop thyroiditis. They¡¯ll die from

distemper or parvo.¡± A participant who is a veterinarian challenged Dr.

Schultz¡¯s statement that the rabies vaccine can be the most immunologically

devastating for dogs. Dr. Schultz said the statement reflected practical

experience. ¡°Rabies is the most likely to cause an adverse reaction,¡± he said.

¡°That¡¯s what the quote is. And the reason is that it¡¯s a killed adjuvant

vaccine.¡±

[InspectorRex]

Tess32 can I ask why Noah had a 6week vaccination, then one again at 9 weeks then the Nobivac?I agree with the others, I would wait until he is at least 16 weeks old for another vaccination and the Vet should cough up the $$ for this as he/she has already given your baby the wrong recommended Vaccination regime by the AVA

Our Vet does 1st Vaccination at 6 weeks(Cavandra, I agree with you here and so does my Vet, only if the pups have been weaned from Mum for at least 2 weeks otherwise they have it done at 8 weeks), then a vaccination t 12-14 weeks then again 16-18 weeks- this is their regime for pups.

Gracie had her final puppy C3 at 14 weeks( she was weaned at 4 weeks) and both her and Phoebe have just had NobivacDHP and don't have to have another for 3 years.They also had Nobishield for KC(intra-nasal)

Good Luck with young Noah, can't wait to meet him in real person

[Guest Tess32]

Thanks DeltaCharlie. I know when you posted to them I didn't know, but he was less than 1:5, not at 1:5. If he was 1:5 I probably would not revaccinate.

The lab that did it was Gribbles Pathology. On the fax I got it had Vetpath down the bottom but the results came from Gribbles Pathology in Melbourne?

Now when my normal vet rang them today (I'd gone to a different vet as my normal vet was away), first they actually said they don't DO that test. They would not tell me or him what the actual titer result was, just that it was LESS than 1:5 and that they recommend revaccination.

Then I found out (bit duh here) that it was the Nobivac company that rang the original vet and changed their minds about how early to titer test - they originally said 7 days was too early, but rang back the vet and said no, do it now and we'll pay for it. Nobivac also offered to pay for another titer test (now) and another C3.

Nobivac people seemed surprised he hadn't had a response (or proper one) at 7 days.

Anyway - after speaking to my normal vet, he wanted to use a different lab, as apparently some DON'T record the actual titer, they just have under 1:5 as a fail, which is incorrect. But when he rang Idexx, they said they only do the test once a month and then send it off to the US! So I think he has to use the same lab anyway.

My vet's recommended I get the titer test on sunday to see if he just hadn't responded yet, and if he hasn't, to revaccinate at 16 weeks. I didn't really want to do that which is why I did want Nobivac, but...there you go.

I can't ask the original vet to pay for the next titer as they DID originally say it was too early - however the free titer test was offered and as Nobivac is said to cover at around 7 days, they thought I might as well, no expense.

Colleen - I wouldn't have vaccinated at 6 weeks if I knew what I do now, but I guess we don't learn everything at the same time. At 9 weeks he had the killed vaccine because parvo was in this area. His 13 week was meant to be his LAST puppy shot, I was not intending to do the 16 week at all.

After this puppy shot, I will probably titer test in a year's time. I doubt I'll revaccinate - immunity is for life IMO. A low titer reading when a vaccination was done age ago just probably means the dog hasn't come into contact with the virus recently.

The question is now though, do I revaccinate with Nobivac if I have to, or another brand?