rocco Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 I own a large strong breed, whom I walk in a check chain. He is not a puller or badly behaved dog. He walks beautifully on lead 98% of the time, we do obedience and I am on my way to start his CGC title. Over time I have come across more and more aggresive dogs out on our walks. The sort that are "oh he just wants to say hi" and straight in to attack Roc. Off lead dogs rushing and attacking him, and even onlead dogs trying to attack him as he walks past. So Roc has become more defensive and wont take any nonsense now. Roc then became funny around other dogs that fire up and challenged him. Now generally when out walking and I see a dog I get his focus click his check and use the words "leave" and he will trot past happy as larry and if he was a good boy he got a treat or heaps of praise. But I do adjust his check up under his chin for my own hold over him. If other dogs are fried up and lunging at us as they walk past, I lose Roc focus, he gets set for a challenge and can pull then I have to break out Popeye. My question is to the experts on pinch/prong collars would you recommend one here? I feel as I am always adjusting his lead up under his neck, when we see dogs, he will be sensing my anxiety. Where I have read the pinch collars stay in place. Is this a silly reason to use a pinch collar on him and would I see results from it? I have used halti's - but he hates them and he will still pull in one, snapped a lead pulling in a halti. He is not an out of control aggressive dog, he is actually very sweet and gentle, he will never start a fight just easily finish one. I just want a way where I keep us both safe, but also where he is happy in his gear and I am 100% confident controlling him. If so where would I go in Brisbane to learn how to fit and use one? Sorry for the long post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 I prefer pinch collars to check chains for a scenario like yours, you do not need to use nearly as much of a correction on a pinch collar to get their attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 (edited) Just curious Rocco1, isn't CGC a Delta thing? I could be wrong, but I wouldn't have thought that they'd approve the use of check chains or prongs? Edited February 11, 2008 by Rom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 Good point Rom, I didn't notice the bit about CGC I'm pretty sure they don't approve of check chains, and would probably have a heart attack over a pinch collar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 (edited) My question is to the experts on pinch/prong collars would you recommend one here? I feel as I am always adjusting his lead up under his neck, when we see dogs, he will be sensing my anxiety. Where I have read the pinch collars stay in place. Is this a silly reason to use a pinch collar on him and would I see results from it? No Rocco1 .... it is not a silly reason. But it is only ONE of the benefits of using a "Pressure Point Collar" (PPCollar) (aka "pinch" collar). Other benefits include, as Kavik as posted, less correction required to receive desired response. This is good for the handler, but also (and importantly) good for the dog. You don't get the affect to muscle or skeletal structure as you do with other available training tools presently on the market. The design of the links also minimises/avoids stress/pressure to the dog's throat/trachea/windpipe. Dog's responses are normally quicker and stress to the dog is reduced - not only for the reasons aforementioned, but also because learning can be faster. Like any tool, it should always be used with knowledge and consideration to correct timing of application as well as to any behaviour modification method you are using. I'm in Melbourne (so not allowed to use the PPCollar as regulation has unfortunately prohibited this ..... although refer THIS LINK and THIS LINK if you want to read further information in that regard. Not sure of trainer/s in Queensland who can help you but I'm sure others here will be able to guide you. Edited February 6, 2008 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocco Posted February 6, 2008 Author Share Posted February 6, 2008 Just curious Rocco1, isn't CGC a Delta thing? I could be wrong, but I wouldn't have thought that they'd approve the use of check chains or prongs?If you want to get a prong collar PM K9Force, a member of this board. Yep Delta is all positive and when Roc is working he is fine, he knows what expected of him. I dont come across aggressive dogs at training. The problem is more out on walks and expecting the unexpected when he is not working, that is when he wont focus and listen and positive reward dont always work. Thank you I will search K9 force, and see what they recommend aswell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocco Posted February 6, 2008 Author Share Posted February 6, 2008 My question is to the experts on pinch/prong collars would you recommend one here? I feel as I am always adjusting his lead up under his neck, when we see dogs, he will be sensing my anxiety. Where I have read the pinch collars stay in place. Is this a silly reason to use a pinch collar on him and would I see results from it? No Rocco1 .... it is not a silly reason. But it is only ONE of the benefits of using a "Pressure Point Collar" (PPCollar) (aka "pinch" collar). Other benefits include, as Kavik as posted, less correction required to receive desired response. This is good for the handler, but also (and importantly) good for the dog. You don't get the affect to muscle or skeletal structure as you do with other available training tools presently on the market. The design of the links also minimises/avoids stress/pressure to the dog's throat/trachea/windpipe. Dog's responses are normally quicker and stress to the dog is reduced - not only for the reasons aforementioned, but also because learning can be faster. Like any tool, it should always be used with knowledge and consideration to correct timing of application as well as to any behaviour modification method you are using. I'm in Melbourne (so not allowed to use the PPCollar as regulation has unfortunately prohibited this ..... although refer THIS LINK and THIS LINK if you want to read further information in that regard. Not sure of trainer/s in Queensland who can help you but I'm sure others here will be able to guide you. Thanks Erny, I have followed a lot of the PPcollar threads and they seem to work wonders for alot of people. Thanks for the advice, looks like it could help my situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocco Posted February 26, 2008 Author Share Posted February 26, 2008 I thought I would give a quick update. I finally got myself a prong collar, thanks to you Erny. I cannot believe the quick response I have achieved with my big guy already. I am very proud of my smart boy. He is responding to his prong really well, had a few dogs which we couldn't avoid (idiot owners with aggressive dogs on long leads). One small correction he was sweet, knew what was expected of him. I didn't even have to us a correction on the next walk, he responded to a command and this is only twice in his prong. I just LOVE this collar. But the biggest thing is finally having confidence in myself and enjoying walks more now. Only thing that is a shame is I am not allowed to use it at my Obedience Club, even though they speak highly of this tool. I think I could achieve more out of him in his prong, get him working better. Big thanks you to Rom with your help. You are a angel with my goof and 42 degree heat. Plus K9 Force for being so helpful. Awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke GSP Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 Are you sure that it is the other dog being agresive towards your own without any provocation? The majority of dog fights I have seen have been the result of a more dominant dogs posture and demeanour (very subtle) and stragely enough the one that made the first "outward" agressive move ie barking/charging was actually the less dominant of the two originally. In my experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 (edited) Rocco01 .... Really glad to hear that things are now better. The fact that you are more confident will help your dog immensely too. I'm sure Rom was thorough in her instruction and guidance for its proper use. I just want to make sure though, that because you have this improved control does not mean your dog's emotions (ie the cause for his reactivity) are yet changed. Remember that comes with time and training. So learn to act early (ie behind the reaction threshold .... in otherwords, at the first sign - which could be for example as little as your dog pricking its ears and looking to the distance towards another dog). Don't rely on giving your dog a correction as a substitute for behaviour modification. Oh - and don't forget the tonnes of reward for the now improved behaviour. Something that I bet you didn't get much opportunity to give him beforehand. Edited February 26, 2008 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denis Carthy Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 (edited) Great work Rocco, glad you got a good result - some vids below of first 5 mins use, 3 days later, and some pre prong collar owner and dog Lab below - started pulling at puberty, 7 months, age in vids 14 months and been pulling since 7 months. Lab - Short Harness Walk Before Prong Collar http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=...352652803788252 Lab - Longer harness 'walk' before prong http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=...727331562006644 This was first 5 mins on prong http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=...653319694775350 Three days after first walk http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=...179535030719474 Permission granted to use the above videos for non proffit educational purposes permitted . . Edited February 26, 2008 by Denis Carthy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akitaowner Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 i think we are the the only club in sydney (that i know of) that will allow the use and positvely advocate the prong/pinch collar being one of the instructors i am able to suggest them to people who may benefit from one, ensure its correct use and educate everyone else in the class about what a great training tool they are. we had 4 dogs (2 of mine) in them last week :D www.pioneersdogtraining.org.au Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 www.pioneersdogtraining.org.au that linky doesnt work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4 Paws Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 (edited) this may be the link http://www.pioneerdogtraining.org.au/ Akitaowner.you don't know of any in the Illawarra area that allow prongs do you?? Edited February 26, 2008 by 4 Paws Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akitaowner Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 sorry i just typed it in - it wasnt a link! no i used to live in more central sydney and went to st ives, mosman and another couple of clubs and it was a push getting them to let me use a check chain! now im much more confident so when i first rocked up at this club i said i knew how to use it and was going to! instructor watched me thru the class and was more than happy to let me continue using a tool i was obviously happy with and competant at using! My suggestion to anyone that wants to attend an obedience club with one is to offer a demonstration (head instructor etc) of how they work and why you use one. Some trainers are very set in their ways and would not consider them but some might be more open to their use. also a lot of obedience trainer only ever train labradors or retrievers and have no idea how to train 'other' breeds which may be more stubborn or wont work for food... now im an instructor with the club i am able to openly suggest them to others sorry 4 paws as i said i dont know of anyone else that lets them in... the pioneers website isnt very up to date but we meet at killarney vale, central coast monday evenings 6.30pm there is no mention of them on the website yet however i feel i might write a short note about them to try to educate people about their use, and that despite preconceived ideas they are a great training tool and should be more openly available for people having specific problems. i would never let anyone buy/have one that i wasnt confident was capable of using it correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snoozie Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 (edited) My suggestion to anyone that wants to attend an obedience club with one is to offer a demonstration (head instructor etc) of how they work and why you use one. Some trainers are very set in their ways and would not consider them but some might be more open to their use. also a lot of obedience trainer only ever train labradors or retrievers and have no idea how to train 'other' breeds which may be more stubborn or wont work for food...now im an instructor with the club i am able to openly suggest them to others i would never let anyone buy/have one that i wasnt confident was capable of using it correctly. I can vouch for this. Though not about the lab part, cause I have one that no amount of waving food in front of his face will alter his attention if there are more interesting things around (like dogs ). Obviously he doesn't fit the stereotype! Under Akitaowner's guidance my boy and I have come such a long way already, and it has even increased his focus and attention on me and what I am asking him to do. So it works on alot of different positive aspects..not just on controlability. IMHO it was the best thing I could have done for my dog and he and I are most certaintly happier for using one. Edited for: stupidhead mistakes Edited February 27, 2008 by Snoozie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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