dee lee Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 Simple really, months ago stuffed up playing fetch with my dog and now once she has the ball will run away from me and will not give it back. I have tried to make her "give" in exchange for a treat but the ball has higher value for her- god she loves that chewing sensation. I have backed off playing it with her as i am trying to beef up my leadership status and i find it challenges that. Tips on how to get her to understand give=ball throw=heaps more fun? Thanks, and hope im not driving all you training gurus too nuts!!! Dee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonymc Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 Deelee,try this approach and see how it works.Equip yourself with two balls the same.Throw one ball for the dog.Hold onto the second ball in your hand. The exercise goes like this,you throw one ball and off the dog races after the ball.You have the second ball in your hand.The dog has picked up the ball you threw and is heading back towards you.As the dog gets closer,start to back up or even run backwards which attracts and draws the dog in. When the dog gets close to you produce the other ball and wave it infront of the dog.The dog will be attracted to the ball in your hand.The aim is to attract the dog to the ball inyour hand causing her to drop the ball she has in her mouth.As soon as she drops the ball,praise her immeditately and throw the ball you have in your hand.Whilst she races off after the ball,pick up the ball she dropped and keep it in your hand to repeat the exercise when she returns. Initially the Dog will just drop the ball on the ground,but after time and practise you will be able to have her pass it to you direct from her mouth. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tilly Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 We found Tonymc's method worked well with our dogs. We also occassionally played with them on a long line so we could guide them back to us. My brother's dog would only play fetch once or twice - after that when you threw the ball she would grab it and then run off and put it in the toybox. She doesn't see the point of giving it to you if you are just going to throw it away again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrunoBella Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 (edited) I was just about to reply to this and got pipped at the post. I used Tomymcs version to start. I have also used a long line which is fantastic for fetch and recall. Ecollar is of course, the best method for fetch......hee hee Tilly Edited January 30, 2008 by BellasPerson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonymc Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 Steve,Erny and Mark may well have much better options than my approach. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WinGus Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 I'm interested in the replies to this thread too as I can't get Pepper to drop a fetch object either. She tends to hang on to it, not run away, and continues to chew it even if she places it in my hand. Is it a good idea to use a number of toys to play fetch with or just the one? I know her all time favourite is a tennis ball, and this is only out when we want to play, but sometimes we will throw her other toys around for her to "fetch". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonymc Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 WinGus,to get a dog to release an item they are chewing or holding you must offer another item of the same value or higher to the dog. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dee lee Posted January 31, 2008 Author Share Posted January 31, 2008 (edited) Thanks Tony, I have tried your two ball approach and the running but she just chases the other ball and then leaves it to come back with the originally tennis ball still popping in her mouth! The whole problem came to a head when i was playing it in the park with her (for a while she would play by the rules) and would run from her to get her to come to me with the ball- now she thinks the game is: "ball gets thrown, chase ball, chew ball(the best!!), and THEN to top it all off i get to play chaseys AND my owner now REALLY wants the ball cause i wont give it back!!! Coool!!". Somehow in all this excitement she then got the idea that fetch means all obedience stops too, hence why i stopped it. Im trying to slowly, in a small area, encourage her to give it up for chicken but i can see her enjoying the chewing too much- the ball in her mouth seems to be the top value thing for her. its a bugger because she gets such enjoyment and exercise from it AND she is less distracted by other things when we do it so its a real win win game for me. And BP, stop your e-collar boasting!!! You know it drives me insane with jealousy! Edited January 31, 2008 by deelee2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrunoBella Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 That's why I do it!! If the two ball system isn't working then use the K9 Force method of putting dog on long lead, throw the ball, reel the dog in and get the ball back. This is a method that you can always win and the dog never gets to keep the ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddii Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 (edited) Thanks Tony, I have tried your two ball approach and the running but she just chases the other ball and then leaves it to come back with the originally tennis ball still popping in her mouth! The whole problem came to a head when i was playing it in the park with her (for a while she would play by the rules) and would run from her to get her to come to me with the ball- now she thinks the game is: "ball gets thrown, chase ball, chew ball(the best!!), and THEN to top it all off i get to play chaseys AND my owner now REALLY wants the ball cause i wont give it back!!! Coool!!". Somehow in all this excitement she then got the idea that fetch means all obedience stops too, hence why i stopped it. Im trying to slowly, in a small area, encourage her to give it up for chicken but i can see her enjoying the chewing too much- the ball in her mouth seems to be the top value thing for her. its a bugger because she gets such enjoyment and exercise from it AND she is less distracted by other things when we do it so its a real win win game for me. And BP, stop your e-collar boasting!!! You know it drives me insane with jealousy! I've had a problem with Xena not retrieving the frisbee and all obedience going out the window when we are playing fetch as well and have solved the two problems in the same way. Not sure if others subscribe to the theory, but it has worked for me. Rule 1 - no retrieve, no play. If we are on our own (just Xena and me) that means that I throw the frisbee and if she chooses not to catch it or bring it back the game stops until she does. She has no interest in other dogs/people so it quickly becomes pretty boring, much the same as a tennis ball that doesn't move on its own. At the worst point it would take about 5 minutes of mexican stand off until she would bring the frisbee back to me. If we are there with CK (my other dog) she comes back to me (recalled) and CK has his turn (they are tethered while each other has a turn so they don't crash while trying to catch it) before she gets another chance to bring it back. It has taken about 3 months of this, but she is just about back to where I want her to be. The problem was that she would run off and look for tennis balls, I know this because she would always find something that looked like it might have once sat next to something that looked like a tennis ball and bring it back to me, then give me that BC, c'mon, let's play look. Now we are working on using the ball for a reward - bring the frisbee back 3 times, get to chase the tennis ball and will extend the number of times she has to bring it back over time. The goal here is to get her to know that the tennis ball will come out, but only if she does as she is told first - have to get her to focus on something other than a bloody tennis ball. Relating this back to you throw the ball, ask her to bring it back and if she doesn't sit down and wait for her to do it. When she does heaps of praise and a chance to chase the ball again. Rule 2 - do as I say or you don't do as you want to. Kind of along the lines of NILIF, but my version I guess. You lie/sit/stand before getting to chase the tennis ball. On their own it's pretty easy - do the command before I throw the ball. (not always that easy with a VERY ball focussed dog) With two dogs it's even easier. Don't obey, get held while the other one goes to chase their ball (I always use 2 balls in different directions for the 2 dogs - they know CK goes first and Xena goes second unless I say otherwise.) This one worked a little more quickly - two throws for the other dog and the 'disobedient' one gets the picture. I've found this also helps to re-inforce that I am the boss and if I ask them to do something - retrieve/catch/whatever then they do it and get rewarded. Hope this helps in some way. Cheers. Tony R ETA 'R' to save confusion!!!! Edited January 31, 2008 by Reddii Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dee lee Posted January 31, 2008 Author Share Posted January 31, 2008 BP, now THAT sounds like a good idea, but wouldnt i still be stuck when it did come time for getting her to "give", or is it sposed to give her the idea that the chasing is the fun bit- no "give"= no throw? Tony R, while the ball is tops, it is closely followed by dogs and people, then food, then me!! Always something fun to replace the ball! I do agree though that some ball related NILIF is in order- will get right on that. But my biggest problem is getting her to give the ball up WHEN i want it. Im trying the association trick at present of saying "give" and praising her when she finally gets bored of it and drops it but i dont find that a particularly proactive approach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snoozie Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 Thanks Tony, I have tried your two ball approach and the running but she just chases the other ball and then leaves it to come back with the originally tennis ball still popping in her mouth! Deelee...probably an obvious question but before you throw the second ball for her did you get her to drop the first one? It only works if she is focusing on the second ball and drops the first one from her mouth, then throw so she chases, while she's chasing second ball you pick up the first.... From what you said above it sounded like you threw the second ball for her before she dropped the first one? Or did she pick up again on her way through? Sorry...just trying to work it out. BTW it does take much patience and persistance. I can get my boy to retrieve and give most times, but sometimes if he's in the mood he won't give and does a "haha..catch me if you can thing". When this happens I just don't play. I turn around and go inside. Then maybe come out an hour later and he's like "oh..I better drop it or she won't play". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonymc Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 DeeLee,Snoozie has hit the nail on the head.The Dog must release the ball in its mouth before you throw the other ball. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrunoBella Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 BP, now THAT sounds like a good idea, but wouldnt i still be stuck when it did come time for getting her to "give", or is it sposed to give her the idea that the chasing is the fun bit- no "give"= no throw? Swap the ball for a treat. Can't eat and hang onto a ball at the same time . If that doesn't work, I would stop playing. I like Rediis two rules as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WinGus Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 Thanks Tony. I have tried giving her a treat, but she just snaps at the treat and then goes back to grab the object. She's a fast one!! I'll try the two ball trick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkS Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 (edited) Yes for dogs so obsessive of the ball or trying to dominate the game, I prefer to use the long lead, and reel the dog in. Remember while reeling the dog in use heaps of praise and motivation. Once the dog is infront of you, I place my thumb and first finger over and around the snout, press between her jaw, while giving the command "leave". Once the dog lets go, then you can reward with treat, and/or re-throw the ball. Another way is when she refuses to come near you, just lay on the ground and ignore her. No eye contact or voice. If she is running off because of attention seeking habits or a sense of controlling you (this is learnt behaviour), then I feel she will try and work out other ways of getting your attention and or she will very quickly learn that she can't control your responses. When she comes up to you, try not to grab her, just ignore until she drops the ball. Or place a juicey treat on the ground right in front of you to encourage her to drop the ball. When she has dropped the ball, then praise with voice. No voice or eye contact until she has willingly dropped the ball. This maybe a slower process..but may eventually work once she understands she can't control your responses. Edited February 1, 2008 by MarkS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 I've used the "you don't bring it, I don't throw it for 2 of mine" and it worked very well. For Noah, I tried that & also the 2 ball & also the food substitution. I ended up being successful by teaching a formal retrieve in a small room inside & then taking that outside. Just another option & something that is also useful to have anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dee lee Posted February 1, 2008 Author Share Posted February 1, 2008 OoOh i winced at your description of the snout hold MarkS, those teeth!! She has a vice like grip on that ball and trying something like that makes her think its tug o war time (which i NEVER play with her since she started playing that with other dog's necks), i cant win that game so i leave her and go inside. She is getting better with the coming back its the "leave" or "give" im having trouble with, i do turn my back on her and walk away if she doesnt play by the rules. I dont practice everyday like i do the loose lead walking so it may take a long time i spose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkS Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 deelee.. this method of having her release will not be viewed as tug-of-war. You are not trying to pull it out of her mouth, you are making her release her grip. BIG difference. You need to be assertive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 Deelee2, On a scale of 1 to 10, (10 being best), what is the standard of your dogs recall, without retrieving or when distracted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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