haven Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 This isn't a perfect world, not everyone agrees with everyone elses method of discussion or getting their point across. You, on the other hand, crossed the line to personal attacks and abusive acusations. Big difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 Back on topic . . . I looked after a GSD who hadn't been socialised and was timid around people, especially men. I gave people treats and if she chose to approach them she got a treat. She was 8 months when I looked after her. She improved to a point but was never a confident dog around people. Kaos was nervous around kids, so I asked kids if they wanted to give him a treat, and those who agreed were given a treat and if Kaos approached he was given one. Kaos being the guts he is :D did approach them (and people on bikes, that he was also scared of) and has improved greatly. He now wags his tail and wants a pat (and probably hopes for a treat ;) ) when he sees a kid. Will he ever be as bombproof as the OP wants their scared dog to be? Probably not. He is a bit of a skittish dog generally, and very alert, always on the move, and has high prey drive. He is not the sort to sit/lie quietly when something happens. And that is fine by me, that is his personality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kajtek Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 (edited) This may help but I am no expert. Just a novice who's read as many books on dog behaviour as I could get. After 3 years of parenting 2 dogs I've discovered that fear of people/dogs may suddenly affect even the most beautifully trained and adjusted dog. There are things that we (primates) miss that are of vital importance to our dogs and may affect their behaviour. When this happens, it your patience, calmness and good dog-communication skills that will right the wrong. I've found Turid Rugaas book "On talking terms with dogs: calming signals" particularly helpful when we had to deal with the unexplained fear behaviour of one of our girls. Anna Edit: The problem lasted for about 3 months. She's been back to her perfect self for over 6 months. We still cannot identify the root cause of the problem. Edited February 4, 2008 by Anna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 (edited) MS: And ALL K9's condescending remarks stay?Hmmm... tell me who runs this board? K9: MarkS, there are rules on this board as there should be, when I first arrived I must admit that I too had been warned when I stepped outside the rules, there are rules & they need to be abided by. To answer your second question, Troy runs this board, I dont envy him that task, it isnt easy to be unbiased with so many members on so many topics, so lets not give him a hard time.. If you dont like the way that he runs this board & you wish to leave, thats your choice. Troy obviously hasnt banned you so to critisize his ruling on his forum demonstrates just how fair he is... You said you would not return yet here you are, mate your acting out of anger as it seems you have misstook what I had said to you as critisism, when it was simply my opinion, which as you said, is my right... Written word doesnt communicate emotion well, which is just one of the reasons that threads can become heated. Some good advice on this board is, give people the benefit of the doubt.. No harm was meant by what I said, if you think it was condesending you can take it from me that it wasnt meant that way. You said that you knew I was going to lose it, well I didnt lose it, but perhaps as soon as you read anything that wasnt in support of you, you took it as an attack? I dont know... Did I call you on what was said? Sure did, I still think the advice you gave could have gone many ways, & that is something that doesnt sit well with me. These people who need help with their dogs really can be distressed & latch onto any help that comes along, unfortunately for them they may fail & it can cost them big time, thats my major concern with what was written. If those reasons are condesending or too critical, then I am guilty of that.. Lets keep the thread on track & keep our personal crap out of it eh? Edited February 4, 2008 by K9 Force Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tarope Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 Hi Jen Martin, Firstly I must say I'm no dog expert or trainer, but 3yrs ago I was in the very same position with a 16mth old Rottie we adopted from a shelter. This poor girl had been bashed, starved and chained for the first 14mths of her life. She had never walked on a lead, been in a house or car before. She was very scared of me, any sudden hand or arm movements she'd hit the ground. Pick up a stick, kick a ball near her she would run for her life and if I went to pat her she would drop her head and turn away. I didn't have a computer then and had never had a cruelty case or a Rottie either, but I did have two GSD's who were raised correctly by me and were such a big help in Opal our Rottie's recovery. Opal saw how they reacted with me and slowly over time with plenty of pats, hugs and treats she slowly came around but it took 6mths before she lost most of her fear. When this happened I noticed a big change in her, Opal would playbite if I tickled her she would come when called and seeing my GSD's jump in and out of the car she did the same. She even started protecting us, something I never expected. I walked her around the yard with collar and lead then slowly introduced a check chain. I would take her in the car and for short walks then to the pet barn where she saw people and other dogs, then 14mths ago she started obedience training with the Rottweiler Club. I received excellent advice and help from the club and I've learnt a little about Rotties too. As fearful as Opal was, never at any time did she try to bite me, which says something for this wonderful breed. Opal will never be 100% because of what has been done to her and I don't think they forget but they do learn to trust and love again, I know this is true because I have the proof. Anyway hope some of this has helped you, good luck. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 (edited) Troy obviously hasnt banned you ... News has it that Mark has received a "ban" penalty. Just so people know. K9 : Sure did, I still think the advice you gave could have gone many ways, & that is something that doesnt sit well with me. These people who need help with their dogs really can be distressed & latch onto any help that comes along, unfortunately for them they may fail & it can cost them big time, thats my major concern with what was written. I have to say I agree with the above. I feel for Mark too though, as from where I sit he likes to really get out there and try to help people. We all do, I know that and often feel guilty for not seeming to "give info" .... like I'm trying to keep it to myself. But from earlier days (from which I've since 'learnt') I've seen my own information misconstrued and it bothers me that there are others who might do likewise, especially in matters such as fear which can so quickly turn to aggression. Change in a dog's behaviour through modification methods isn't 'text book exact' either, and without close contact and some sort of observational supervision, it can be impossible to accurately modify/adapt techniques and programs to accomodate those changes. Mark - I hope you do venture back here when you can. I know for a fact that I would enjoy a 'banter' with you over training and behaviour mod methods. :D Edited February 4, 2008 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 Mark, I enjoy your posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 So do I Mark S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybeece Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 My dog went through a period of being very warey of strangers, to the point where I was beginning to worry it'd develop into fear. He'd cringe when new people came through the front door and would nervously almost nip at them if they paid too much attention to him. So I stopped visitors from paying any attention to him. He is to be ignored as much as possible until he's had a minute or so to sniff them and after that they're his best friend. He gradually showed signs of improvement using that alone as people weren't the challenge they once were at the front door and sometimes even had food for him. He's improved out of sight after a lot more socialising at dog school and in public as well, but the fact is that he's still warey of strangers and I don't expect him to change. The reaction is no longer verging on fearful though, just warey and I don't think that trying to push him any further would be productive or good for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stumped Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 l appreciated that Mark offered something that may help , with suitable warnings. The OP could make use of it or not , l wonder why he was singled out . Mark l always thought you gave reasonable advice in a thoughtful manner , l think alternative solutions are really what forums are about. l dont see it as a competition , rather as an expression of different view points, and the OP then picks what they think suits their situation, l think it is a shame that one such viewpoint is now gone. l also enjoyed your posts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 There we go, we need a competition between trainers and their own dogs. May the games begin. What criteria and behaviour should we judge? Come back Mark, after all, when the tail gate comes down.................. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamuzz Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Hi Jen See you are in NSW - anywhere near Sydney? Our current foster dog Ruby is very fearful, around both people and dogs. She has been to see Steve and he gave us some positive tips to start her on the road to recovery. She is now doing better. She is fine around me and 98% fine around my OH. During a weekend outing she let a dog friendly person give her a treat, and relaxed enough to be patted. Ruby may always be a bit timid or "soft nerved" or whatever you call it but I don't think she is plain terrified all the time any more. As Mark S pointed out, that is no life for a dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 LL: Come back Mark, after all, when the tail gate comes down.................. K9: I think the term is "when the tailgate drops...." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tess32 Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 l appreciated that Mark offered something that may help , with suitable warnings. The OP could make use of it or not , l wonder why he was singled out . Mark l always thought you gave reasonable advice in a thoughtful manner , l think alternative solutions are really what forums are about. l dont see it as a competition , rather as an expression of different view points, and the OP then picks what they think suits their situation, l think it is a shame that one such viewpoint is now gone. l also enjoyed your posts Are you the same person as Tonymc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stumped Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 No Tess, just similar names. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helen Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 I was going to recommend this book, sorry for the delay but have been busy - http://www.kateconnick.com/library/woodshydog.html Also ask the question in rescue forum. There is a member of this forum who I can only remember by real name who rescued a dog who was terrified of everything who is now doing great - the person would definately be reading the rescue forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helen Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 Just saw the book I mentioned is available for loan, see this link http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=123000 worth checking it out for sure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 LL: Come back Mark, after all, when the tail gate comes down.................. K9: I think the term is "when the tailgate drops...." Gawd I am hopeless, lucky my dogs seem to understand what I am trying to say to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arawnhaus Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 (edited) Interesting read. What happens if a dog was exposed to all the average things most dog owners let their dogs see and meet but the dog develops issues of fear eventually giving a classic example of flight/fight.?That is a puppy socialised by experienced dog people then with each outing becoming more nervous, not less,with minimal recovery time.This is only with people. In all my life of living with dogs,I've never really experienced fear based problems with dogs,within the past 3 years that has changed unfortunately. Edited April 22, 2008 by Delkerabo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted April 23, 2008 Share Posted April 23, 2008 Hard to say but if the problem is getting progressively worse i would suggest that the socialisation efforts MIGHT be acting as incomplete flooding and therefore sensitising the dog. If he is uncomfortable in certain situations, is exposed to them for 'socialisation' but is removed from them before the fear has subsided, this can worsen the behaviour next time around. This is just a guess at what could be happening based on the info provided. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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