lovemesideways Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 What are all the different training methods that people know, have been taught, have made up themselves, for helping a dog get over its fear of people? Theres is a rescue girl I would very much like to adopt, but I have to first help her with her fear of people. She doesnt show Any aggression. Just slinks away if you walk towards her. I got her to relax around me, but Im not entirely sure how to get her to be completely oblivious to people. My goal is to be able to have my 2 year old nephew RUN past her, and have her not even flinch or even wag her tail! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 K9: Your dogs temperament may not suit those goals, there may be genetic reasons or learned events that have caused the dog to act this way. Your best move wold be to have your dog evaluated by a Behaviourist & have them lay out your options... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkS Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 Lack of early socialisation or negative socialisation is very difficult one at times. Most important thing to remember, whenever the dog is showing ANY signs of fear or insecurity, NEVER try and calm or mother the dog. This just reinforces the current state of mind. Depending on your dog there are in my opinion a couple of possible ways of helping. 1: Have people come to your house and supply them with treats. Don't feed your dog before hand, if she is food motivated she may eventually come up for food. The owners must totally ignore the dog, the visitors do all the positives. When people are offering food they must not be presenting dominant body language or intense eye contact. 2: THIS METHOD SHOULD REALLY ONLY BE DONE UNDER THE SUPERVISION OF AN EXPERIENCED BEHAVIOURIST: Sometimes flooding is the best method. Granted this will place the dog under a lot of stress. But understand, if your dog is fearful, then she is already under extreme stress. We must teach/condition her to deal with her own stress by not running off. You need to have her on lead so the the situation can be controlled. Choose the people that you have do this carefully. They must be very calm, relaxed but assertive. Place her on the lead and flat collar have someone take the lead and just walk around, ignoring her. If she stresses to much, then have the person make her sit beside him/her on lead, and just be calm with her. No petting, or eye contact while she is stressed. This forces her to deal with her stress, and eventually she must give in to it. Patience is number one here. No matter how stressed she gets in this situation we must work her through it until she gives in to the stress and begins to relax. If we stop while still stressed, then we are making the problem worse, and reinforcing the stress levels. Even if she is shaking and looks totally fearful, you can't stop, you must have her work through it. The person she is with MUST STAY CALM and project calm positive energy. The dog will feed off the energy being projected by this person. If you must sit there with a stressed dog for 30 mins, then do so, eventually most dogs will exhaust themselves and give in to it and lay down and relax. IT IS SO IMPORTANT THAT WE DO NOT LET THE DOG GO WHILE SHOWING ANY SIGNS OF STRESS! The person can then pet the dog once it has released all its stress and relaxed. I know in some eyes this seems cruel making a dog stressed to learn to deal with every day situations but it does work, and in my opinion more beneficial for the dog. We are not only conditioning the dog that there is no need to be fearful of people, but more importantly we are teaching a dog to release stress. Dogs that run away, from people are reinforcing their own beliefs about people, and also are dogs that have not learnt to deal with stress correctly when young. To many people are not allowing young puppies to deal with their own stress. Owners tend to mother a scared or frieghtened puppy, instead of ignoring the pup while in this state, and therefore reinforcing the stress/fear. All puppies must be placed under varying levels of stress while growing up. They need to learn on their own terms how to inwardly deal with stress. SOCIALISE, SOCIALISE, SOCIALISE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haven Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 K9: Your dogs temperament may not suit those goals, there may be genetic reasons or learned events that have caused the dog to act this way.Your best move wold be to have your dog evaluated by a Behaviourist & have them lay out your options... Completely agree. This may be something you can 'fix' or it may be a lifelong issue that you can improve, but to what degree only time and a LOT of hard work and patience will tell. I've had my GSD for over 6 years now and he will NEVER be comfortable around people he doesn't know, despite the amount of time and money I have put into his training and socialisation, consultations with prominent trainers, vets, behaviourists, various treatments, natural therapies etc etc. I'm not your average dog owner either, I am a qualified trainer and have undertaken various studies in animal behaviour and psychology, I am confident that I have done the very best for this dog and his issues that anyone could. He is a 'worst case scenario', but I always feel compelled to warn people in your situation of what you may be taking on if it is a genetic and or critical period issue. I hope for your sake it is not, but either way this is definately something which you should seek the assisstance of an experienced and qualified trainer/behaviourist with and not try to muddle through on your own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkS Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 (edited) Jen Martin: I got her to relax around me, This should tell you something Jen. There is hope for her. Always remember dogs live in the moment. If her condition isn't genetic or a chemical imbalance of the brain, etc (which I doubt very much). Then I see no reason why this dog cannot be accepting to others as she has to you. I deal with a lot of dogs with these issues, and I believe in more than 90 % of cases there can be vast amount of improvement with patience, dedication and commitment. Dogs are very good at adapting to their environment if we understand them and allow them to work through it correctly. K9: Your dogs temperament may not suit those goals, I don't agree that a dogs 'temperament' has anyhing to do with issues of not trusting. It's pack related and is due to negative social interaction, and as I said earlier dogs can adapt if we go about the modification correctly. Sure she may never be 100%, but what is my concern is that her stress levels may need to be reduced. If we don't lower these levels then we are not being fair on her. No dog should be kept in a high level of stress, everytime we have visitors. Dog's do adapt to their environment...trust me. Edited February 1, 2008 by MarkS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 1: Have people come to your house and supply them with treats. Sorry MarkS ..... but this carries with it its own set of problems. Often the timing of giving the dog the treat (not excluding the timing of the dog actually receiving the treat) can reinforce fear behaviour when people don't know what they are looking for. Many times these small little things are not understood and not thought of. It's because of these nuances and also because fear behaviour, handled incorrectly, can easily turn to aggression, that it is best to arrange for a trainer/behaviourist to consult with owner and dog. Apart from being able to assess by observation, the trainer/behaviourist can also explain AND demonstrate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkS Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 (edited) I agree Erny, that timing of any positive is extremely important. I am not suggesting it's not. However I feel in regards to this type of positive, the positive is coming from a person that the dog perceives as a threat. The owner is not giving the positive. If the dog is holding back and refuses to go anywhere near the person with the positive, then no it will not work. As the dog would be too stressed to accept the reward if we tried to make it. Remember we are changing the mindset of the dog. If for example you have a dog that is fearful of other dogs (not fear aggression). Do you not socialise it with dogs that are well socialised, and calm in their behaviour (you pick the right dogs)? This then tells the fearful dog, that this other dog is not a threat. If you are then 100% consistent as to the type of dogs it socialises with for awhile, slowly you condition the dog not to build up its stress levels. The fearful dog is slowly conditioned to socialise in a stress free way. Natural socialisation. I see nothing wrong with rewarding a dog with slight untrustworthiness towards strangers, as long as it is the stranger that does it, and that stranger behaves and acts in the correct manner.. calm, relaxed and non assertive. And that the dog willingly comes forward for the reward. The dog must WANTcome forward. If we do this enough we condition the dog to be able to read a humans body language. And as long as the dogs owner informs visitors how to correctly interact with the dog, then this fearful/stress state should disappear in many cases. But time and consistency is so important. If the dog was displaying fear aggression, sure I would not be considering either advice to the unexperienced. But Jen has not suggested any fear aggression whatsoever. Also in the 1st method, I am not suggesting pushing a dog back to force it to take a treat. The dog must want to come forward of it's own free will...... Edited February 1, 2008 by MarkS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridgie_cat Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 Classical conditioning that would come with receiving treats from strangers + rewarding being near them (regardless of what else the dog is doing/feeling) I would have thought would outweigh whatever minor negatives they are reinforcing?? Esp since these could be added in as criteria later on when the dog is comfortable with the approach and hopefully has started thinking that strangers could = good treats etc...??? or at least this is my reasoning?? Will be interested to see what else comes up here since this seems to be a common issue with shelties and strangers Bridget Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 However I feel in regards to this type of positive, the positive is coming from a person that the dog perceives as a threat. I understand MarkS .... but much depends on how much the dog is fearful emotionally, and how much might be a learnt behaviour. We don't know this dog and can't know this dog unless we saw it and worked with it. I'm not suggesting it is one or the other (ie emotional or learnt), but there can be a component of one (eg "learnt") which compounds the other (eg "emotional"). Even a person offering food to a dog and the dog receiving it at the wrong time can result in strengthening any component of the 'fear behaviour' that is actually 'learnt'. I do agree with you in general though that the dog who has negative value towards (eg) people needs to learn positive value. I just don't think that the common approach of feeding food (regardless from whom) without understanding the dog and the importance of timing is thought out as much as it might and possibly should be. MarkS : Do you not socialise it with dogs that are well socialised, and calm in their behaviour (you pick the right dogs)? This then tells the fearful dog, that this other dog is not a threat. Sure - but of course it depends on the level of the dog's fear as to the distance threshold you work at. So it might merely observe other dogs socialising from a distance without involvement to begin with. The other difference is that the other dogs do not offer food treats to coax the dog in to them. Generally speaking they are also more adept at 'speaking dog' between each other than we are. IMO their timing of responses to each other is far more keen than any of us ever could be. I have worked with fear behaviours that, if I could apply a percentage to them, might present 40% real (ie emotional) fear and 60% "learnt" fear behaviour - the latter having been rewarded by the presentation of food (from strangers) at the wrong time. Once I have stopped the dogs' expectations that they will receive a reward for exhibiting the "learnt" fear behaviour, 60% of the 'fear posturing' quickly disappeared. We were then able to work on the remaining 40% of the dogs' "real" (ie emotional) fear through desensitisation methods combined with food treat rewards from stangers that were more appropriately timed, simply because the owners got to not only hear the explanation but got to observe were coached. This is why it is IMO best for people to get one-on-one help rather than leave it open to interpretation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 I would have thought would outweigh whatever minor negatives they are reinforcing?? Esp since these could be added in as criteria later on when the dog is comfortable with the approach and hopefully has started thinking that strangers could = good treats etc...??? Depends on the dog IMO. How do we know that what this dog is presenting in behaviour is for the most part not already "learnt" behaviour? Wouldn't know, unless we got to see the dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkS Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 Hi Erny I don't dispute anything you have said. And I agree that if it is learnt behaviour, we could be reinforcing the lesson. It's like a dog that quickly snatches some food from another dog then runs off. The dog has learnt to move quickly or be attacked. So when the dog moves forward to take the food, it is placing itself under stress, and it is also reinforcing this stressed state by being 'rewarded' for getting away safely with food. I do agree every situation presents itself in a different light. I have lost count of the number of methods I have used to help modify fear behaviour. One of the biggest instigators and reinforces of fear based dogs is the owners own emotional state and leadership abilities. I have 2 couples that attend my group socialisation class with fear based aggressive dogs, on both of those I firstly focused on the owners state of mind and body language, not the dog. These 2 couples both showed high levels of insecurity when people came towards them and their dog, this in turn triggered the aggressive response. As the owners began to become more confident and relaxed being around other dogs and people, the dogs confidence also increased. All these dogs needed was some confident and assertive leadership. So yes all cases are different I am willing to concede that suggesting the use of food could be going about this situation wrongly, and you can't know unless you were there to observe the dog. I however also believe there is no harm in trying and see what type of response you get from the dog. A couple of sessions rewarding a dog that is coming forward of its own free will, isn't really going to make the situation worse, it just may not improve. If there is no improvement we can then move on to alternative methods. Make it simple first..sometimes the most simplist methods produce the most amazing results. This dog remember became confident around Jen.. I'd be interested to know how she got this dogs confidence up enough to trust her? As there is her answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 (edited) K9: Your dogs temperament may not suit those goals,MS: I don't agree that a dogs 'temperament' has anyhing to do with issues of not trusting. K9: According to the OP this is a fear issue, fear is often due to a low threshold to avoidance, AKA weak nerves. The goal of the OP is My goal is to be able to have my 2 year old nephew RUN past her, and have her not even flinch or even wag her tail! A dog with weak nerves may never be able to fulfil that goal... ie this dogs temperament may not be suitable for the OPs goal... M: It's pack related and is due to negative social interaction K9: sorry I didnt realise you has seen this dog... with you being is South Aust & the dog here in NSW MS: Sure she may never be 100%, but what is my concern is that her stress levels may need to be reduced. If we don't lower these levels then we are not being fair on her. No dog should be kept in a high level of stress, everytime we have visitors. K9: I didnt say this dog cannot be helped, but it seems you have diagnosed this dog & solved the case & it appears the OP doesnt own the dog as yet? This person is looking for a dog that will, in their words "My goal is to be able to have my 2 year old nephew RUN past her, and have her not even flinch :D or even wag her tail!" There is nothing wrong with saying this dog may not be able to do this, & recommending she seek advice from someone who can see the dog... Edited February 4, 2008 by K9 Force Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 (edited) MS: 2: THIS METHOD SHOULD REALLY ONLY BE DONE UNDER THE SUPERVISION OF AN EXPERIENCED BEHAVIOURIST: K9: lol I wonder what sort of behaviourist would come out & supervise whilst the client carries out someone else's method? ******** edited cos I took off my 'doesnt play well with others T shirt... MS: This forces her to deal with her stress, and eventually she must give in to it. Patience is number one here. No matter how stressed she gets in this situation we must work her through it until she gives in to the stress and begins to relax. If we stop while still stressed, then we are making the problem worse, and reinforcing the stress levels. Even if she is shaking and looks totally fearful, you can't stop, you must have her work through it. K9: or plummet into Learned Helplessness or elevate the fear response from avoidannce to fear aggression.. MS: If the dog was displaying fear aggression, sure I would not be considering either advice to the unexperienced. But Jen has not suggested any fear aggression whatsoever. K9: well not yet anyway, but I have seen many a dog find aggresion fast when someone tried flooding, then were dealing with fear aggression... These real possibilities are why we dont give step by step advice over the internet... Edited February 4, 2008 by K9 Force Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrunoBella Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 (edited) edited - topic cleaned up Edited February 4, 2008 by BellasPerson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 Jen - I have had a bit of a simmilar issue and I have asked for advice here int he past. Here is my old thread http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?show...c=89384&hl= Maybe you will find something there that will be on use for you. I can say that a year went by and I could not be happier with what I have achieved. My girl is happy at shows, goes under male judges with no problems. She is weary of man, and always will be, but its not somehting that worries me greatly, once she is introduced to a man within couple of minutes she is fine with them. I have set up plenty of very positive situations for her. One advice I can give you - if you decide to do it yourself - be patient and positive and dont force your dog into anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkS Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 I will not be back to this forum. Troy sent me a warning..and removed my posts but not "Force". It just shows me the immaturity of this site, that someone can be so condescending to people he doesn't agree with, and march around here like he owns the place. ENJOY! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haven Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 Your posts were edited because they were full of abuse and personal attacks, unlike K9s. Funny how that works :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkS Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 Thats Ok haven ....As long as you are happy thats all that matters. I had ago at K9 because I am sick of him being so condescending to ppl on here... This is a place for healty debate and discussions.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haven Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 This is a place for healty debate and discussions.. Which is why you received a warning and your posts were removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkS Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 And ALL K9's condescending remarks stay? Hmmm... tell me who runs this board? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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