Kadbury Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 Hi all I am going to adopt a rescue dog (White Shep) and she has just been diagnosed with diabetes. here is the link about Hope (Be warned the pictures are shocking) http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=123273 I would love any contact or information that will help me with this beautiful dog regarding managing her Diabetes. Food and any other ideas that you may wish to share. At the moment she is in Sydney and I live in Melbourne - she will have to be stabilized before she can come to her new Forever Home. Thanks in anticipation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baifra Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 Hi Kadbury, What they will do with Hope initially (from memory) is keep her for the day and give her insulin, then they will probably want to keep a close eye on her for another 24 hours or so doing regular blood glucose levels(BGL). This is to establish how much insulin she will require to keep her BGL''s within acceptable limits. When my girl was diagnosed i had to take all the food, including snacks that she consumed in a day with a complete list of her routine including what times she ate and what exercise she did. She will either be put on once daily or twice daily insulin injections. (they dont hurt the dogs and they will eventually learn that when they see the needle it means food is on the way!!) My girl bows her head for me so i can inject her in the scruff of the neck!! Sorry im getting a bit bogged down with details!! Because Hope is still in ordinary condition and still needs to put on weight, her insulin doses will probably be variable until she gets better. If you google diabetes in dogs you will find heaps of info, mostly american but still helpful. Like i said to you before it is a bit overwhelming to begin with but it becomes very routine (monotonous at times!!!) soon enough. The vets have been very supportive with me over the last couple of years so you should find yourself a vet your very comfortable with as you will see a lot of them to begin with!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsfevr Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 (edited) To be honest this is one area that you work with the vet first ,simply stabilizing & then working what is good bad/ . We baord many diabetic dogs,some stay on there normal diet,others a normal but with adjustments & some sadly only can end up on a very special diet . Fined a vet who is very offay with diabetes & go from there ,. Alot of our clients add metamucil to there diets as this slows the food down passing through which means it in there system longer & obviously food & diabete is very important Edited January 22, 2008 by settrlvr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadbury Posted January 22, 2008 Author Share Posted January 22, 2008 Thank you for your replys I am reading more now than I ever did in School......lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EISHUND Posted January 26, 2008 Share Posted January 26, 2008 Hope is currently on one morning injection of 21units for a week. Then we are going to do another blood curve. Baifra, what do you feed your dog? We need to find an affordable dry food as the Hills Prescription is just way too expensive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baifra Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 Hope is currently on one morning injection of 21units for a week. Then we are going to do another blood curve. Baifra, what do you feed your dog? We need to find an affordable dry food as the Hills Prescription is just way too expensive Sorry it's taken so long to reply, i have been travelling!! Sammy gets fed eukanuba seniors light dry food and some canned food only because she likes it and not for nutrional purposes obviously!! It's normally just 'my dog' from the supermarket. I very rarley change her diet as her blood sugars get a bit out of whack. She doesnt mind. The most important thing is portion control and consistantcy. She has breakfast at a certain time which consists of wet and dry food and a frozen yoghurt, diet, no fat or sugar and a schmako's raw hide. She gets the same thing for dinner 12 hours later minus the yoghurt. In between meals she gets only carrots and i dont limit these as they dont appear to effect her blood sugars. She didnt love them to start with but found out very quickly that it was a carrot or nothing!!! Does Hope only get weekly insulin? how does the vet monitor and regulate her blood sugars? What is the name of the insulin being used?. Sorry about all the questions but im very interested in the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadbury Posted January 27, 2008 Author Share Posted January 27, 2008 Thanks baifra for your reply. My post was a bit scattered, Hope is getting daily injections of Caninsulin 21units until Thurs when she will have another fasting blood taken, this could mean another injection per day or who knows. We have had donated a secondhand Blood glucose monitor and I have the strips ready, then she will apparently once stable be on urine tests. Also a 15kg bag of Nutro Choice Chicken and Rice dry which was recommended by Pet Supplier. i have just posted in Hope's thread about the goodies we have had donated ......here is the Link http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?show...3273&st=270 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baifra Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 Oh that sounds better, I couldn't for the life of me work out how weekly injections would work.!!! It's not a bad thing if she needs two injections a day, in fact sammy went from one to two injections a day and her energy levels went right up, she looked happier and more alert and her blood sugars were much better. I also use a blood glucose monitor however i very rarley use it anymore. To start with to get a feel for the whole diabetes thing i took them all the time and kept a diary of what they were, what she ate if they were high or low, after certain snacks and exercise and so on and quite frankly nearly did my head in!! But it does allow you to know your dog and what will increase her blood sugars. The vet will also appreciate the diary as he/she will be able to see a pattern and decide whether the insulin needs to be adjusted. However over time you will know exactly what is going on with Hope. With Sammy, if she drinks a lot, i know she has high blood sugars also she will be a bit lethargic. Her blood sugars have never been too low and she has never had a 'hypo' but i always carry a small cannister of glucose around on walks and there is one in my handbag and in the car. I will go and catch up on the other thread now and see how wonderful everyone has been in the cause for Hope!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthony mazzeri Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 I couldn't get my dog stabilised properly until I started doing the blood testing myself every day. The weekly blood tests at the vets were just too far apart so they actually delayed the proper daily stabilisation. It's not a bad thing if she needs two injections a day, in fact sammy went from one to two injections a day and her energy levels went right up, she looked happier and more alert and her blood sugars were much better. I agree. It's the best way too keep the levels stable. Two smaller meals a day and two smaller injections means the daily swing is half as much as just one big meal and one injection. I also tested twice a day (before meals) with the Accu-chek glucose meter and adjusted the injections accordingly in order to maintain his sugar levels between 4 and 14 (you get the hang of it after a while). Also good to keep track and adjust the insulin as the dog's age, metabolism and body mass changes over time etc, or even if their appetite changes from one day to the next (which is likely to happen as this White Shepherd improves over time, or goes off her food for a day). It also helps to confirm if the dog is ever hypoglycemic and needs a quick feed of glucose whenever you think they may be acting strangely. Urine strips are nowhere near as accurate as a blood monitor, but are important to monitor levels of ketones in the urine/bloodstream. Ketones are the real killers with diabetes. Watch the ketones. You want them as low as possible or non-existant if the diabetes is caught early enough. Here's an online forum for owners of diabetic dogs: caninediabetes They use the American sugar level numbering system though, which is different to ours. With ours, an acceptable human blood glucose range is 5 to 7, depending on what you've just eaten or done. I believe a dog's normal sugar level is lower than ours at 3 to 5. PS. The best place to use the lancet to draw a drop of blood is the top lip, with the lancet set to the minimum depth required to get just a tiny drop of blood. Basically as least pain as possible if you're going to do it every day! There's no need to go deeper and get more than a tiny drop of blood to touch the test strip to. PPS. When this dog eventually goes blind with cataracts, her sight can be restored with an operation to remove the clouded lenses and replace them with artificial lenses, just like they do with humans. It's not cheap though. PPPS. A diabetic dog is an expensive dog. Caninsulin, test strips, more regular vet visits... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baifra Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 Your right Anthony, a diabetic dog is an expensive dog!! but i must add.... worth every cent!! I take blood from sammy's elbows, she doesnt even feel it. I just couldn't bring myself to prick her lip!! I also dont even use the lancets. I just use the little needle in my hand. I find the little 'pricking device' too harsh even on the lowest setting and the sound would startle sammy. With regards to her eyesight, sammy is nearly thirteen years old and she has had diabetes for nearly 3 years and her eyesight is fine according to the vet. Her eyes have no cloudyness however, she has always been in otherwise good health not like poor Hope. Sammy is on an insulin that is given to humans, called protaphane. It has both short and long acting insulin. She got switched to that when her caninsulin dose got to high and the costs were getting a bit out of control!!! That online forum you provided is an excellent resource Anthony, i never knew it exsisted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadbury Posted January 29, 2008 Author Share Posted January 29, 2008 Thank you all for your replies and advice. I saw the Vet yesterday with Hope and have to do 3 hourly bloods for 12 hours for 2 days so I can get a better idea of the peaks and drops. Hope is now on 2 injections per day so I will be plotting a graph. This morning she was much more stable - yesterday she was very wobbly and her front legs just kept buckling - I cried and lay on the grass next to her while she drank. Today she walked straight out and has been ok....had her bloods/inj/breakfast.......now I am working out the start of the graph....LOL I know I can do it but have to get more coffee in for the brain to start....LOL Thanks for the site Anthony I will definately go and have a look. Cheers all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthony mazzeri Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 Good luck Kadbury. The wobblies is just from too much blood sugar, hence her drinking to dilute it with more water in her bloodstream. Once the insulin starts working and you keep her levels around 14-16 or less at their peak, she'll be less wobbly and less thirsty and will come good as you've just seen this morning. Baifra, I've read that cataracts depend on the individual dog. Some never get them, some get them within weeks (like mine did). The larger the breed too, the more chance of getting them, so it's more likely Hope will eventually get them too. The speed at which mine got them even took my vet by surprise, so it may not be something Kadbury's vet has told her to expect. I think one of the negatives about diabetes, which is the loss of nerve sensation in the extremities, is actually a benefit when it comes to lancets and needles - they don't feel them as much as they normally would! Interesting that Sammy's taking human insulin. I was always told dogs couldn't do that, which is why they developed Caninsulin. Does it work just as well? And yes, worth every cent! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baifra Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 Good luck Kadbury. The wobblies is just from too much blood sugar, hence her drinking to dilute it with more water in her bloodstream. Once the insulin starts working and you keep her levels around 14-16 or less at their peak, she'll be less wobbly and less thirsty and will come good as you've just seen this morning. Baifra, I've read that cataracts depend on the individual dog. Some never get them, some get them within weeks (like mine did). The larger the breed too, the more chance of getting them, so it's more likely Hope will eventually get them too. The speed at which mine got them even took my vet by surprise, so it may not be something Kadbury's vet has told her to expect. I think one of the negatives about diabetes, which is the loss of nerve sensation in the extremities, is actually a benefit when it comes to lancets and needles - they don't feel them as much as they normally would! Interesting that Sammy's taking human insulin. I was always told dogs couldn't do that, which is why they developed Caninsulin. Does it work just as well? And yes, worth every cent! Hi Anthony, The human insulin seems to work really well. She has been on it for 2 years now and the cost difference for me is enormous. It costs about $54.00 an ampule and lasts me close to a month.The caninsulin just got too expensive and when i changed vets he said they were starting to introduce the protaphane for that reason. My vet also said that caninsulin was initially marketed as a once daily dose but it was quickly discovered that it was far more effective as a twice daily dose. My new vet who has always used caninsulin, was very interested in protaphane, he did quite a bit of research and is now in the process of changing his regular diabetic dogs over from caninsulin with great success and with very happy dog owners as the price is so much cheaper. I cant say for sure if Sammy's condition improved because of the change from caninsulin to protaphane as she went from caninsulin once daily to protaphane twice daily so it was probably a mixture of the both. It's interesting you mention the loss of nerve sensation in the extremities as Sammy is hopeless on her legs and that side effect has never been discussed with me. We put it down to arthritis (spinal) and she is on NSAIDs. I guess she is no spring chicken either!!! Thats sad about glucoma happening so fast in your dog. Im glad Sammy has never had a problem with that. She's had enough medical problems on her plate!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthony mazzeri Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 I think I can help you with Sammy's leg condition. When my pup's rear legs started to go, I took him to a neuro specialist who basically said the longer nerves in the lower spine and rear legs (and throat too, hence the bark gets huskier) deteriorate with diabetes and there was nothing I could do. Said something about arthritis too if I recall. I didn't want to hear that, and didn't believe it, so when we walked (my dog staggering) out her door, I decided to see if there was anything I could do. And there was. That web forum I linked to pointed me in the right direction. To something diabetic cat owners were trying actually. They had learned researchers were trialling the use of methyl cobalamin in Japan to treat long-nerve loss in humans with diabetes and the results were promising. Methyl cobalamin is actually Methyl B12. Vitamin B12 in its purest form which they've only just recently developed. It's the actual form of B12 in the nervous system which repairs damaged nerve cells, and normally the liver can't convert enough of it from standard vitamin tablets to make any difference. So this new form goes straight into the bloodstream and straight to work so it's like a hundred vitamin B12 tablets at once. It wasn't available in Australia at the time when he was diagnosed at age 11 four years ago (about the same as Sammy), so I ordered these from the USA. My pup passed away last year from heart failure at age 14 and a half (older than even his non-diabetic relatives) so I stopped buying them and can't tell you if they're available in Australia now or not. Probably cheaper from America anyway, especially in quantity. And it worked. My pup went from staggering and unstable to walking almost normally again within a couple of months (it takes time for the cells to regenerate in enough numbers before you start seeing results). The vet was impressed enough to ask for details of the research I found and kept telling me I should take my pup back to the neurospecialist to show her the difference so she could recommend it for other dogs. It's not a miracle cure though. The process of nerve deterioration is continuous so it's basically holding back the dam wall, rather than curing it. Just like insulin actually. So you have to keep giving a few of them every day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadbury Posted January 31, 2008 Author Share Posted January 31, 2008 Morning all, Spice had a great night. she is reeally settled in now as the following pics will show you. I woke up at 3am she wasn't beside the bed or on her bed ?? looked outside mmmmmmmmmm then this Gosh for a dog that had to be lifted up to get in the car......she did really well.......LOL This is where she really wanted to be I think....and I am sure it won't take her long to get up on here LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baifra Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 Thank you so much for that information on the B12. Im going to order some and see how she goes on them. I'll keep you updated on how she goes. Watching her walk is heartbreaking and to see her get so excited when the leads come out for a walk upsets me as i only take her for 10 minute walks 2-3 times a week and my other 2 get walked twicw a day! I wasn't too keen on the arthritis diagnosis either because she didn't seem to be in pain at all and most times she doesn't seem to realise that her back legs are crossed over or bent at strange angles. I am forever correcting her back legs or lifting them for her. By the way her bark is different, something i hadn't really noticed until you mentioned it. I know my girl wont be around forever but until i see the light go out of her eyes i will do everything possible to give her the best quality of life. Thanks again Anthony for all the info you have provided. Im very keen to try this B12 and see how she goes. Kadbury, Spice (Hope) have you changed her name?, looks great!!! She will be up to no good in no time!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadbury Posted January 31, 2008 Author Share Posted January 31, 2008 http://vetnpetdirect.com.au/home.php?cat=347 Will catch up with the chat soon....but while searching found this and you can purchase it online....is it the one your talking about ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthony mazzeri Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 Spice is looking like she's liking her new home very much. Well done to you for taking her on and good luck with her! Unfortunately all the B12 on your link appears to be the basic cyanocobalamin Vitamin B12. Even if it's injected directly, the liver still has to convert it to methylcobalamin, which is what fixes the nerves. If I recall the literature correctly, the liver can only convert about 5% of cyanocobalamin into methylcobalamin. So it still couldn't produce enough of it every day anyway even if you overdosed with standard vitamin B12. Whereas the tablets (lozenges actually) I linked to are pure methylcobalamin, already in its usable form so the liver doesn't have to do anything and it goes straight to fixing the nerves in the adequate amounts required. Just remember when shopping that the label has to actually say methyl-cobalamin and not cyano-cobalamin, which is just standard vitamin B12 you can buy in any chemist and won't make much difference. Good luck with it Baifra. Please let me know how it goes with Sammy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadbury Posted February 1, 2008 Author Share Posted February 1, 2008 Morning report on Spice, She is FANTASTIC she actually ran doing circles to the shed where the food is........wooohooooo. Her insulin levels are doing great and I am taking her to be weighed today so we can adjust the amount of insulin she needs. Her graph is getting more and more stable which means IMO - not so diabetic knowledge is FANTASTC....My Vet will be over the moon when I ring him this morning....I can't wait to ring him but it is to early yet ......LOL Look who greeted me this morning at 6.55am Spice knows the time she has her blood test and insulin.....then Food.....LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadbury Posted February 1, 2008 Author Share Posted February 1, 2008 She also knows when I set up the Glucometer and the strips - she lays down and does this big SIGH - gets a treat - stab - hears the beep beep and looks for another treat then trots out to look for the cat...... Her routine is fantastic and I am sure if I missed the three hourly test she would drag me into kitchen and point to the equipment.....LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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