When Did Barf Change?

[cazxxz]

In answer to the original question, it changed when Dr Billinghurst diverged from Tom Lonsdale's original 'Raw Meaty Bones' and started marketing and commercialising the 'BARF' diet.

This is an excellent link to read: http://www.rawmeatybones.com/petowners/whynotBARF.php

As well as the rest of the website. The original book 'Raw Meaty Bones' is well worth a read for those who are considering BARF, raw or prey-model diets.

Wow, that link is very interesting. Billinghurst has said some sketchy things!

[MissMaddy]

When I got my girl I wanted to feed her a raw diet. Once I started doing a bit of research over the internet, I got so confused as to which one to follow, that I gave up! I'd still love to feed her raw, but I found it so hard to know which way to go, who's books to buy, etc, that I'm not confident enough to do it.

[nillasdad]

In answer to the original question, it changed when Dr Billinghurst diverged from Tom Lonsdale's original 'Raw Meaty Bones' and started marketing and commercialising the 'BARF' diet.

This is an excellent link to read: http://www.rawmeatybones.com/petowners/whynotBARF.php

As well as the rest of the website. The original book 'Raw Meaty Bones' is well worth a read for those who are considering BARF, raw or prey-model diets.

Thanks for the link, reading through it though, I wonder why he spends 90% of his writings bad mouthing Billinghurst. A bit sad if you ask me...

Hasn't he got anything better to do with his time?

[Guest Tess32]

In answer to the original question, it changed when Dr Billinghurst diverged from Tom Lonsdale's original 'Raw Meaty Bones' and started marketing and commercialising the 'BARF' diet.

This is an excellent link to read: http://www.rawmeatybones.com/petowners/whynotBARF.php

As well as the rest of the website. The original book 'Raw Meaty Bones' is well worth a read for those who are considering BARF, raw or prey-model diets.

Thanks for the link, reading through it though, I wonder why he spends 90% of his writings bad mouthing Billinghurst. A bit sad if you ask me...

Hasn't he got anything better to do with his time?

Well you have to admit, those quotes on vegetables from Billinghurst are kinda ridiculous.

[nillasdad]

Well you have to admit, those quotes on vegetables from Billinghurst are kinda ridiculous.

I find it hard to get past the whining...

[poodlefan]

The first Billinghurst book was published in 1993. That book certainly didn't commercialise anything. From between then and now something has gone whacky. I doubt Billinghurst would be impressed.

Poodlefan I think the problem is people here the term on places like this, don't get the books, don't do the research and think they are feeding the correct diet.

Yep. I agree. I've seen Dr Billinghurst present on his subject and found him very interesting. His views have changed a little over time. He no longer promotes feeding cereal at all.

I'm always wary of anyone who has to bag others to get their point across.

I feed Dr B's recommended diet. I have the full support of my holistic vet in that and the ordinary vet, while not endorsing it, agrees that a carefully researched and prepared raw diet does no harm.

[badboyz]

Personally I don't know why anyone would pay the prices of those barf patties. A huge ripoff in my opinion. The place I buy my mince and raw bones manufactures the patties and sell them for a cheaper price - but still ridiculously high for what you get.

[fbc]

When I got my girl I wanted to feed her a raw diet. Once I started doing a bit of research over the internet, I got so confused as to which one to follow, that I gave up! I'd still love to feed her raw, but I found it so hard to know which way to go, who's books to buy, etc, that I'm not confident enough to do it.

I'm with you missmaddy.

There are too many different varients to the raw meat diet.

Maybe if there was a weekly structure you could follow until you became familiar with it.

I know that would make me feel a bit more confident that i was feeding correctly.

Until then I guess i will just continue with dry and the varied meats and bones they are getting now.

By the way, they certainly appear in good health, good coat shine and muscle development.

[poodlefan]

If people are interested in feeding raw and don't know how to go about it, one book I'd recommend you try to get hold of is Natural Nutrition for Dogs and Cats by Kymothy Shultze. She refers to Billinghurst, Lonsdale et all but her writing style is very clear and easy to understand.

Crikey, if you can manage to feed your family a decent, nutritious home prepared diet, why on earth couldn't you manage it for your dog.

The idea that you have to be an expert to come up with a balanced canine diet is a myth promoted by those who have the most to benefit from it - dog food manufactuers. Tell a mum that she's not qualified to feed her kids and that all the best food comes out of a packet and she'd laugh at you (I hope :p )

People fed dogs well for centuries before cereal millers came up with a great idea for using all that byproduct that was unfit for human consumption.

Edited January 21, 2008 by poodlefan

[MolassesLass]

I always considered the patties as the in-between option. Better than a kibble/can diet but not as good as it would be feeding BARF by the letter.

Edited January 21, 2008 by molasseslass

[JulesP]

The dogs and horses get fed well...I eat Lean Cuisine! Too knackered after feeding all the pets to cook for me.

[alananddora]

If people are interested in feeding raw and don't know how to go about it, one book I'd recommend you try to get hold of is Natural Nutrition for Dogs and Cats by Kymothy Shultze. She refers to Billinghurst, Lonsdale et all but her writing style is very clear and easy to understand.

Crikey, if you can manage to feed your family a decent, nutritious home prepared diet, why on earth couldn't you manage it for your dog.

The idea that you have to be an expert to come up with a balanced canine diet is a myth promoted by those who have the most to benefit from it - dog food manufactuers. Tell a mum that she's not qualified to feed her kids and that all the best food comes out of a packet and she'd laugh at you (I hope )

People fed dogs well for centuries before cereal millers came up with a great idea for using all that byproduct that was unfit for human consumption.

Well said Poodlefan.

On this forum and from other sources people have questioned my ability to fed Jasmine a raw balanced diet. Citing various vitamins/minerals that I could not possibly feed her in a balanced way. I agree that it cannot be too hard to feed a dog a balanced, healthy, fresh diet.

[poodlefan]

I understand that raw feeding isn't for everyone. That's why I advocate either doing your homework or feeding the best quality manufactured diet you can afford.

I'll only ever feed raw though if I can help it.

Edited January 21, 2008 by poodlefan

[alananddora]

I had heard of it but before changing her diet I made sure I read the appropriate literature (Billingham, Shultz, plus web based info) before taking the plunge to make sure over a period of time she gained a balance in her diet. Not all her individual meals are balanced, but then again neither are mine now or as a child.

[cazxxz]

I had heard of it but before changing her diet I made sure I read the appropriate literature (Billingham, Shultz, plus web based info) before taking the plunge to make sure over a period of time she gained a balance in her diet. Not all her individual meals are balanced, but then again neither are mine now or as a child.

Actually - my dog's individual meals are deliberately unbalanced. It's balance over time that seems important to me. It's more convenient to feed a different meal each night and know that each week will be balanced instead. Eg - occasionally he eats only vegetables for dinner (that's my fat baby's version of a fast - I totally fail at making him skip a meal), and occasionally he gets only meat/offal.

There are plenty of examples in this forum of weekly meal plans for the interested members who need a bit of extra guidance

[espinay2]

Why the change? Having 'been along for the ride' inside the raw diet movement through that period, perhaps I can shed a little light on how it has all developed over time historically (though my timeline may be out a bit as I am going from memory).

Early in the piece there was Juliette de Baraclay Levy who was really the forerunner in bringing people back to feeding a more 'natural' diet to dogs. Many fed their dogs according to her suggestions. It had a lot more emphasis on grains, and much is considered 'outdated' now, but it still provides some fantastic info. She influenced a lot of the authors who came later, including Billinghurst and approved very much of people such as Tom Lonsdale and what they were saying.

Then Billinghurst released 'Give your dog a Bone' Which started a major groundswell in more natural feeding. It emphasised a very simple method for feeding the family dog using natural foods rather than commercially processed products. It is still an excellent book and any dog fed according to these guidelines should do well. Billinghurst also a few years later released 'Grow your Pups with Bones' designed to expand on feeding for puppies/breeding etc.

Around the same time there were authors in the US such as Kymythy Schultz who were developing similar approaches. Her approach is more geared to an American way of doing things but it as well is excellent.

A very strong internet community developed which very much led the way in introducing people around the world to feeding a raw 'bones and raw food' or 'biologically appropriate raw foods' diet. There were quite a few very dedicated people behind the scenes who were looking at diet intellectually and doing reseach as well as teaching others. It got big and Billinghurst for a time developed quite a cult following.

the US was a lot harder place to gain acceptance of this type of diet. Fear of bacteria was/is a big issue for them and many were scared of feeding bones - often being told emphatically by their vets not to do it. They have been feeding commercial foods a lot longer than here in Australia. Feeding a home prepared diet was a lot scarier a prospect for many and many felt they could only do it while having their hand held. Quite a few companies began to be developed providing ready made raw diets - usually to be fed in conjunction with raw meaty bones but also which could be fed on their own for those scared of bones.

Tom Lonsdale was around this time also looking at things from a Veterinary dentistry point of view. He took a slightly different approach to feeding a raw diet. His was a far more 'basic' concept of feeding whole raw or parts of prey. Much more simple in many ways, but also a bit further out of the comfort zone for many people still struggling with the concept of not feeding commercial foods.

Billinghurst then releases a new book 'The BARF Diet'. It is a much more simplified approach when compared to his first book - RMBs and patties. The grains were gone from his recommendations by this time but he still relies heavily on vegetable matter. It is a much easier approach for many US folks to take on board - the book is designed more for this market.

Right about now the political/doctrinal 'veggie wars' are occuring and there is a split between those who subscribe to a Lonsdale style approach and a Billinghurst one - this largely focusses on the role of vegetable matter in the dogs diet. One saying it is important and the other saying you can feed it incidentally, but it is not necessary. It is an 'omnivore versus carnivore' debate.

Billinghurst also gets involved in the creating of commercial patties - which many who have liked his teaching that diet is easy to do yourself and you dont need commercial products see as a 'sell out'. Others do like it as despite the expense as it makes things easier for them, adding another option to the commercial market.

I am not sure where things stand commercially with him and the patties, but his picture is on them and they are promoted as his.

FWIW, I think that no matter which approach someone takes out of those given above, they are a better option than feeding a highly processed commercial dry or canned food. It comes down to personal choice and all are very similar in their 'bare bones' basics.

[Jed]

Well said, espinay 2.

I don't think Tom Lonsdale and Ian Billinghurst were ever aligned, were they?

Lots who espouse a BARF diet have not read Billinghurst, and are either making it up as they go along, or have read various websites which seem to have altered what Billinghurst wrote (or I can't read).

I believe anyone who intends feeding BARF should obtain Billinghurst's book/s and read them first.

If you read Billinghurst and Lonsdale and Juliette de Baraclay Levy, it can be very confusing, but any or all the diets are good for dogs. The main thing is to feed different things - over a period - so all the dog's nutritional requirements are satisfied by balance, and to give preservatives and artificial colourings a miss.

I basically feed BARF, but pups and in whelp and lactating bitches get what de Baraclay Levy recommends, because I have found, over years, that that is what works for me, and the results have been good.

Too many make the simple art of feeding dogs into rocket science, when it isn't. Our dogs thrived before commercial foods, on table scraps, eggs, meat offcuts from the butcher, offal, bones, bread, oatmeal, whatever was about. I was speaking to an older, and very successful breeder today, and in years gone by, their dogs thrived on bread soaked in the water the meat was cooked in, and meat + eggs and some grains. And they all lived long and healthy lives.

I can't comment on the patties - I have never seen them!

[Andisa]

I personally think that like any diet there are more than one way to serve it up.

With or with out fruit and veggies, who really cares? We all know that the dogs can be fed much worse than that.

I feed a combination of Barf - bought and home made.

Vets all natural mixed with my choice of minced bones.

Raw meaty bones with either choice every day.

Before I am set upon by the DOL police, yes I do sell the product, but at the same time I always tell people to do the research for themselves simply because they have to learn for themselves just what is in dry/canned foods. What is in a raw diet and the benefits / disadvantage of feeding either way.

Bottom line is it is a personal choice on what is fed, right or wrong, hopefully we all feed what we believe to be the best choice of food for our dogs.

By the way Billinghurst and Lonsdale promoted raw feeding many years ago together. Billinghurst changed his views when he saw a window of opportunity to make it big in the pet food industry.

I have spoken to Lonsdale a few times now, he knows that I have an investment in Barf and I have had some very interesting conversations with him. He is very easy to talk to and will answer any ones questions. I have never spoken with Billinghurst - ever. I am a member of the Raw Meaty Bones group. This is not controlled by Lonsdale at all.

I too recommend that any one interested in feeding a raw diet read Billinghusrt's and Lonsdale's books before changing diets. Many people go in half cocked and stuff it up causing more problems than if they stayed on crappy dry stuff.

Supplements also are something that you either need to add or don't. I have 5 dogs, 13 yo desexed male Matlese. 6m/o female pug. 3 yo female Rottie and her 2 - 16 w/o female pups. All dogs eat the same diet adjusting to their size and needs.

I know so many people who are using a different product for each dog. Way too hard for me.

Edited January 23, 2008 by Lisa M

[jamie]

Why the change? Having 'been along for the ride' inside the raw diet movement through that period, perhaps I can shed a little light on how it has all developed over time historically (though my timeline may be out a bit as I am going from memory).

Early in the piece there was Juliette de Baraclay Levy who was really the forerunner in bringing people back to feeding a more 'natural' diet to dogs. Many fed their dogs according to her suggestions. It had a lot more emphasis on grains, and much is considered 'outdated' now, but it still provides some fantastic info. She influenced a lot of the authors who came later, including Billinghurst and approved very much of people such as Tom Lonsdale and what they were saying.

Then Billinghurst released 'Give your dog a Bone' Which started a major groundswell in more natural feeding. It emphasised a very simple method for feeding the family dog using natural foods rather than commercially processed products. It is still an excellent book and any dog fed according to these guidelines should do well. Billinghurst also a few years later released 'Grow your Pups with Bones' designed to expand on feeding for puppies/breeding etc.

Around the same time there were authors in the US such as Kymythy Schultz who were developing similar approaches. Her approach is more geared to an American way of doing things but it as well is excellent.

A very strong internet community developed which very much led the way in introducing people around the world to feeding a raw 'bones and raw food' or 'biologically appropriate raw foods' diet. There were quite a few very dedicated people behind the scenes who were looking at diet intellectually and doing reseach as well as teaching others. It got big and Billinghurst for a time developed quite a cult following.

the US was a lot harder place to gain acceptance of this type of diet. Fear of bacteria was/is a big issue for them and many were scared of feeding bones - often being told emphatically by their vets not to do it. They have been feeding commercial foods a lot longer than here in Australia. Feeding a home prepared diet was a lot scarier a prospect for many and many felt they could only do it while having their hand held. Quite a few companies began to be developed providing ready made raw diets - usually to be fed in conjunction with raw meaty bones but also which could be fed on their own for those scared of bones.

Tom Lonsdale was around this time also looking at things from a Veterinary dentistry point of view. He took a slightly different approach to feeding a raw diet. His was a far more 'basic' concept of feeding whole raw or parts of prey. Much more simple in many ways, but also a bit further out of the comfort zone for many people still struggling with the concept of not feeding commercial foods.

Billinghurst then releases a new book 'The BARF Diet'. It is a much more simplified approach when compared to his first book - RMBs and patties. The grains were gone from his recommendations by this time but he still relies heavily on vegetable matter. It is a much easier approach for many US folks to take on board - the book is designed more for this market.

Right about now the political/doctrinal 'veggie wars' are occuring and there is a split between those who subscribe to a Lonsdale style approach and a Billinghurst one - this largely focusses on the role of vegetable matter in the dogs diet. One saying it is important and the other saying you can feed it incidentally, but it is not necessary. It is an 'omnivore versus carnivore' debate.

Billinghurst also gets involved in the creating of commercial patties - which many who have liked his teaching that diet is easy to do yourself and you dont need commercial products see as a 'sell out'. Others do like it as despite the expense as it makes things easier for them, adding another option to the commercial market.

I am not sure where things stand commercially with him and the patties, but his picture is on them and they are promoted as his.

FWIW, I think that no matter which approach someone takes out of those given above, they are a better option than feeding a highly processed commercial dry or canned food. It comes down to personal choice and all are very similar in their 'bare bones' basics.

That was an awesome post,thank-you very much.

I personally prefer Tom Lonsdales approach to raw feeding,very easy and affordable.That said,I did buy a box of Dr B's BARF patties a couple of months ago and my dog loves them,especially if I give them to him straight out of the freezer on a hot day.I don't feel that the patties are even all that expensive,I got a box of 48 patties for $48,so for someone wanting a convenient,healthy alternative to tinned food or kibble,and is too scared to feed raw meaty bones,these are a good option.

Edited January 23, 2008 by jamie

[Andisa]

That was an awesome post,thank-you very much.

I personally prefer Tom Lonsdales approach to raw feeding,very easy and affordable.That said,I did buy a box of Dr B's BARF patties a couple of months ago and my dog loves them,especially if I give them to him straight out of the freezer on a hot day.I don't feel that the patties are even all that expensive,I got a box of 48 patties for $48,so for someone wanting a convenient,healthy alternative to tinned food or kibble,and is too scared to feed raw meaty bones,these are a good option.

Are you sure about that price, because that is less than what I pay wholesale for it..

I would be interested in where you are from. I should be getting it from your supplier.