Jett Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 Hey! I have "rescued" (about 2 months ago), a gorgeous young kelpie male who is about 6 months old...who is an absolute "dag"...When outside with him, and not really giving him much attention, he will "flop" between our legs, roll onto his back and waggle his legs around with a silly "grin" on his face. We can move away, and he will just follow and do it again...we can discipline him, and he keeps doing it but just without the "glee"... HELP!!! It is really quite annoying, especially when all dressed to go out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrunoBella Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 How funny but painfull. If moving away doesn't work, I go inside/outside (depending on where I started ) and slam the door. Leaving Mr floppyn the other side of the door will prevent him from flopping between your feet . You need some acting skills so that the dog gets a clear picture of you turning away and leaving him. This should help the behaviour. Other thing to try is to teach the Back command. Call "Back" while you are gently walking into the dog and get them to move back a few metres. Stay calm at all times. Reward good behaviour. The back command is usefull for keeding dogs off little kids and stopping jumping as well. Let us know how you go.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkS Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 Don't discipline! Just ignore. When he flops on his back, walk away call him to you... if he stands reward him, if he flops again, walk away.. He will get the idea soon. Seems this overly submissive behaviour has been imprinted since puppy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jett Posted January 17, 2008 Author Share Posted January 17, 2008 Thanks for the replies so far! He IS an overly submissive dog, and doesnt quite know what to do with attention when he gets it...he just goes completely over the top! Before I rescued him, he was left outside on a chain all the time and only from what I can gather, thrown bits of food to, and yelled at the rest of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkS Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 (edited) Poor dog Consistancy here is of the utmost importance.. He is a very confused dog. Only pay attention to him when ALL 4 paws are on the ground.. Standing, sitting, etc. Everytime he rolls on his back just immediately walk away saying nothing. You can call him to you but again if he flops. walk away again. You really do need to be quick at re-enforcing the behaviour you want Edited January 17, 2008 by MarkS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 (edited) Agree that discipline will reinforce this submissive behaviour. Ignoring it will most definitely help. Giving him an alternative might also speed extinguishing it. If he goes to flop, ask him to sit or drop where you'd prefer him to be (assuming he knows these cues) and reward that instead. A sit or a drop in front or beside you would be far less annoying I'm guessing. At least he's wanting to interact with you - that's a good sign. Now you have to show him the kind of interaction you'd prefer. Edited January 17, 2008 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jett Posted January 17, 2008 Author Share Posted January 17, 2008 Any more suggestions on exercises that would help us both??? He wasnt socialised at all before he came to me, as I said, he spent his whole life on a chain and yelled at. As a result, he is also VERY wary of strangers, and pretty much anyone else actually, but is absolutely enthralled with me, and getting my attention. But he doesnt know what to do when he gets it- so he just gets VERY "silly". I have taught him to sit, shake hands, lie down, and "beg"... but that was soooo much hard work to get him to FOCUS... he has trouble just getting past the fact that someone LIKES him.. I would appreciate any help/suggestions at all... I think we need it! lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 (edited) It is going to be hard, but I would only show the dog any affection when you get the desired behaviour. With my dogs they are often ignored when I get home for about half hour before I even talk to them. That way there is no sillyness, barking, jumping etc when I get home as I dont react to them at all. We have snuggles and talk time when they are settled and calm. By doing this your dog is not going to think you dont love them etc !!! It is just establishing the certain behaviour you want and pack order, and affection will be shown after this has been accomplished. Your dog will then start looking to you for direction. Edited January 17, 2008 by BC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 (edited) Ignore the flopping on back and reward the standing on all four paws, as suggested by others. Are we to take you literally that he only does this between your feet? If so you can help set him up for a "win" by not having your feet apart where he can do this. That way you'll manage more opportunity for reinforcement and this will help make the message clearer to your dog. Oh - and thanks for rescuing a dog who needed a home . ETA: If your dog is on his feet and you go to reinforce but he then flops over on his back, immediately withdraw/cease the reinforcement (even part way through) and return to ignoring. And remember that ignore includes not making eye contact. Edited January 17, 2008 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jett Posted January 17, 2008 Author Share Posted January 17, 2008 Thanks so much for replies so far...I have already begun with everyones advice... Erny... yep.. you can take me pretty literally..lol. If I do have my feet together, then he kind of just flops ON my feet and then kicks with his legs into my legs. (Can be a little painfull)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jett Posted January 18, 2008 Author Share Posted January 18, 2008 Ok...I need more advice! I think it may be time for me to get a behaviouralist in, but for the meantime...any suggestions?? I have been doing exactly as was suggested.. giving him attention ONLY when he shows "good" behaviour, and ignoring him with "bad"... no eye contact, no nothing... except NOW he is trying really hard to GET my attention I guess, and is kinda jumping up at me with this weird little whimpering crying noise... What does THIS mean?? What is going on in his head?? Im ignoring him when he does this too, but he just keeps doing it!! I worked it out and he has been here for 5 weeks... the first week he was very standoffish, and still is with everyone else. The flopping behaviour started then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belijae Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 It could be that he is frustrated that what used to work to get attention now does not. It may take a long time for him to stop trying the old behaviour - even if it works some on the time dogs can hold onto these behaviours. It working sometimes can actually make the behaviour stronger! Watch him doing everything, so you get to know his body language (this is important to know, not just in this situation). Move away as soon as he starts to move to roll onto/into you - pre-empt his behaviour if you can and don't let him do it. Keep ignoring unwanted behaviour and don't forget to reward even the most insignificant good behaviour, especially to start with. Reward him for being calm with all four paws on the ground with brief calm attention or treats or both. Be aware of your voice and the way you move - your voice can elevate his excitement and so can quick movements. I know it can be hard when you desperately want to control your dog, but if you try and actually be calm both within your head and what you do with your voice and movements, it can really help. Your dog is young and he needs you to show him what appropriate behaviour is in all kinds of situations. Be patient and all your hard work will pay off in a big way. You mentioned it was hard to hold his focus. Have you heard of or tried clicker training? It involves marking desired behaviour with a click or marker word like 'yes!' which is followed by a reward (often food, but you can use toys if that is what motivates your dog). It requires good timing to mark the behaviour and can be useful training tool. There is plenty of information on clicker training here on DOL as well as the rest of the web. Like these... clickersolutions.com clickertraining.com There are so many ideas and ideology about how to train dogs. My ideas about how I will do things is constantly evolving as I read more information and I borrow techniques from here and there - you have to find what works for you and your dog. I like Suzanne Clothier's approach (so far from what I have read and experienced), here is a link to here website which has some very interesting free articles. I recommend even reading ones that you don't think apply to your situation - I was glad I did. flyingdogpress.com If you don't mind a bit of reading, she has written a book called Bones would rain from the sky: deepening our relationship with dogs. I read this recently and can appreciate her approach to training and how we view our dogs and the things they do. It is not a 'how to train' book with step by step instructions, however it is thought provoking and has examples of how certain problems were remedied. By changing they way I thought about some things, I have definitely noticed an improvement in my dogs behaviour through our improved connection with each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 Ok...I need more advice! I think it may be time for me to get a behaviouralist in, but for the meantime...any suggestions??I have been doing exactly as was suggested.. giving him attention ONLY when he shows "good" behaviour, and ignoring him with "bad"... no eye contact, no nothing... except NOW he is trying really hard to GET my attention I guess, and is kinda jumping up at me with this weird little whimpering crying noise... What does THIS mean?? What is going on in his head?? Im ignoring him when he does this too, but he just keeps doing it!! I worked it out and he has been here for 5 weeks... the first week he was very standoffish, and still is with everyone else. The flopping behaviour started then. Think of it this way....you walk into a lift every day to go to your office and press "Level 2". Every time you do this the doors shut, the lift moves up, stops at Level 2, the doors open and you get out. One day, you walk into the lift, press "Level 2" and nothing happens. You press "Level 2" again. And again. You press it harder. You swear. You really whack the button. Still nothing happens. Eventually you give up and walk out of the lift and take the stairs It's the process of extinction - not reinforcing a previously reinforced behaviour. Your dog is so used to getting the same response that a sudden change makes him try harder and harder to get your attention. Stick with it, be persistent and be 100% consistent. If you give in now you will actually reinforce the behaviour more strongly than before (due to a process called variable schedules of reinforcement). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jett Posted January 19, 2008 Author Share Posted January 19, 2008 Thankyou so much belijae...very helpful! I will be going thru the links you gave me with relish!! He does the same things to my other dog, who is a very well adjusted, older boy. Jumps all over him, and basically annoys the crap out of him! He just has no sense of the right way to socialise with anyone... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TangerineDream Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 When you are trying to extinguish a particular behaviour using silence / ignoring / immobility, you will quite often find that the pup will get 'creative' and when one doesn't work, will try another, and if that doesn't work, will try another etc etc and as the others have said, will try all sorts of new behaviours to try and get your attention (at this point, any attention will be perceived as being a reward). This is why you have to be STRONG and resist the temptation to react to any behaviour other than the one that you want. It may help to set your pup up so that you can reward him more frequently for the 'desired' behaviour and that will help extinguish the undesired behaviours faster... Good luck, be strong, be really, really patient (I know how many tricks pups have up their sleeves....and you may begin to find out over the next week or so), and stay sane and above all - be consistent!! It'll take some time, but it'll work! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 Erny... yep.. you can take me pretty literally..lol. If I do have my feet together, then he kind of just flops ON my feet and then kicks with his legs into my legs. (Can be a little painfull)... All whilst ignoring him, make sure you take your space - don't move away when he's on your feet. Nudge/shuffle in to him - make him move from you. Spotted Devil is right - sounds like the extinction burst (ignoring him as you are doing is technically named "extinction training"). Provided it's not a potentially injurous issue, I like the extinction burst ....... shows you that your training is actually working - your dog is perceiving your new regime. Hang in there - provided you don't quit before the extinction burst has peaked and waned, you should begin to see the results you desire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jett Posted January 19, 2008 Author Share Posted January 19, 2008 that is wonderful to hear that it is all working!! I will definately hang in there, and am enjoying it all immensely! Cant wait to have a well-adjusted, obedient dog!! One more question tho, will the training that I am doing transfer with him at all onto the way he behaves with my other dog-the jumping, biting etc?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 that is wonderful to hear that it is all working!! I will definately hang in there, and am enjoying it all immensely! Cant wait to have a well-adjusted, obedient dog!! One more question tho, will the training that I am doing transfer with him at all onto the way he behaves with my other dog-the jumping, biting etc?? Not necessarily, no. But your other dog should be able to put this one in his place? (assuming all things being well there - eg. that your other dog is not fearful; aggressive; or sporting injuries; health issues or even 'size' issues etc. etc. etc.). You may have put up this information in your earlier posts - apologies if you have, I'd need to refresh my memory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jett Posted January 19, 2008 Author Share Posted January 19, 2008 ERNY- My other dog is a very well adjusted Shar Pei male who is just always on his best behaviour... He is not fearful, aggressive, every thing is fine, but just seems to "put up with it".. occassionally, and I mean occassionally, he will have a snap at the kelpie, who will then submit... but the rest of the time he just puts up with it with this kind of pained expression on his face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 (edited) Hard for me to be the judge from this end of the keyboard, but I do like to let dogs 'sort it' provided before and afterhand there is not likely to be blood shed. (Balanced) dogs are the best communicators with dogs than we shall ever be, no matter how much study, learning, theory or experience we have under our belts. However, when there are 'family' dogs, sometimes they don't really learn how to appropriately interact with dogs outside of their family. For instance, two RR x Danes I met down at the local park get on famously and happily with each other. They bound and bounce and mock-fight with each other. But each has never learnt to be any more gentle than its other mate needs it to be as they have not socialised with other dogs outside of their circle. And what they might now perceive to be 'appropriate' is commonly not appropriate to other dogs. A friend of mine is adopting a mastiff x . She already has a labrador. The mastiff x is on trial for a few weeks. The job ahead of my friend is to not only monitor the dogs to see if they are compatable at an emotional level, but also to see if she can 'gentle' the playing between the two. The lab loves to hoon around but a first meeting last weekend saw the mastiff x getting too rough with her (still friendly, but throws his body around too much). We stopped play each time we saw it getting too 'exciting' and when they calmed down, allowed them to freely interact again. This is what she is going to be doing over the coming weeks - so in her place, she'll be 'stepping in' to see if she can teach the mastiff (who has never received much in the way of 'boundaries', limitations either to humans or other dogs) some self-control in play. (Personally, I would prefer to see her mix her lab with another breed more suitable to size and strength, given they are both youngs dogs and also seeing BOTH have already had cruciate ligament ops.) So what I'm saying here is that provided you are the dogs' leader (as perceived by them) then you should have the right to 'govern' and step in when things are too over the top. The hard part is not to bow to temptation by stepping in when the other dog might well best be able to deal with it him/herself. As, as I mentioned, their communication amongst each other is far clearer and more accurate than we will ever be. Sometimes, allowing a rambuctious young dog to interact with other dogs outside its family circle (when the ones inside its family circle aren't demonstrating the guidelines we'd prefer) is a good thing - but you need to be very certain that the dogs you choose for this interaction are proven 'level-headed' dogs who are known to interact appropriately. If you are uncertain, then you're best to do this under the supervision of someone who knows and recognises dog behaviour well. Edited January 19, 2008 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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