Raw/prey Diet

[niki schaef]

hi all having recently discovered the idea of a prey model diet i think i want to have a go at feeding my dogs on it. but first i would like to ask a few questions.

1. what are the daily ratios of bone/meat/offal? is it 60/35/5% or similar

2. what do others feed as the meat component? is it mainly mince or can it be any kind of meat eg steak, stirfry meat, chicken breast/thigh etc?

3. do you need to add anything to the meat?

4. is the only difference between barf and prey the vegetables component? do prey feeders feed any kind of veggies?

5. is there any kinds of offal that should be avoided?

6. what % of bodyweight is the most common to feed? or is it more trial and error?

7. can anyone recommend any good books/websites for me to do other research if you cant be bothered answering questions!!

i'm currently feeding my boy on advance dry with some natures gift mixed in. i've noticed recently he always seems to be hungry. he is definatly being fed enough (not fat but wouldn't want to put on any more weight). after his tea he goes back to his bowl a couple of times a night to see if hes left any or its magically filled up again. and he sniffs all around the kitchen for any little scraps. is he just being a gutso dog or could it be his diet?

i'm sure i'll think of other questions. thanks all!!

[DeltaCharlie]

1. what are the daily ratios of bone/meat/offal? is it 60/35/5% or similar

It should be roughly 75% meat/ 15% bone/ 10% organs. This isn't a daily amount (you would drive yourself insane trying to do that each day) it just has to work out over time. I usually feed it over a week, which roughly works out as 4 days of meat, 2 days of bone, and 1 day of organs.

2. what do others feed as the meat component? is it mainly mince or can it be any kind of meat eg steak, stirfry meat, chicken breast/thigh etc?

I feed mainly mince because that is what I get from my supplier. It can be in any form though, still has the same stuff in it. I try to feed a variety of meat (lamb poultry beef kangaroo).

3. do you need to add anything to the meat?

I don't feed mine any supplements. I do give them a raw egg once or twice a week and a some yoghurt once a fortnight.

4. is the only difference between barf and prey the vegetables component? do prey feeders feed any kind of veggies?

Im not 100% sure on the Barf diet but I know that prey feeders do not feed vegetables as part of the diet. I give some to mine occassionally as a treat but I know that it has no nutritional value to them and is going to go straight through onto the lawn Even then it is a piece of carrot or something when I am chopping vegies for my own dinner or preparing the birds food.

5. is there any kinds of offal that should be avoided?

I am always worried about the organs I feed them so I buy the chopped liver or kidney from the supermarket. Bit more expensive, but at least I know it is made for humans. I freeze it before I feed it to them as an extra precaution. Heart is actually a muscle so if you feed it, its best to consider it as one of the meat meals and not one of the organs meals.

6. what % of bodyweight is the most common to feed? or is it more trial and error?

Usually 2-3% of their ideal body weight. Its pretty easy to judge though, if they are getting skinny, feed them a bit more, if they are getting fat, feed them less.

7. can anyone recommend any good books/websites for me to do other research if you cant be bothered answering questions!!

http://www.rawfed.com/myths/

http://www.rawfoodlife.com/raw_pets.htm

http://www.rawfeddogs.net/

http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html

http://www.kaossiberians.com/rawfeeding.htm

Edited January 15, 2008 by DeltaCharlie

[hopenfox]

DeltaCharlie pretty much said all I was going to.

The only thing I will say is the need for a dog to tackle large interesting meals - mince does nothing for the health of your dog's jaws and teeth and also doesn't ready your dog's stomach adequately for the coming meal, like the pulling, gnawing and tearing of meat does (the stomach begins to produce acids during this pre-eating exercise).

The whole purpose of prey model is to feed prey as close to whole as you can, providing not just food, but mental, physical and psychological exercise too.

I feed whole raw fish, turkey or chicken quarters, beef, lamb or pork roasts (with or without bone), whole rabbits, kangaroo tails, lamb necks, legs or shanks and pig's feet for the occasional treat. For offal I feed the liver and kidney from lamb, beef or chicken and also feed heart as muscle meat.

The goal is to feed a variety of animal parts from a variety of animals over time.

Another website I would recommend would be http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

[DeltaCharlie]

Ahh yes, I always forget to tell people that I feed their food frozen. That stops them from gulping down the bones, it takes them longer to eat and means they have to chew their meat, even if it is minced. My dogs love it frozen, especially in summer.

[laffi]

I am still confused about mince vs raw meaty bones (RMB). After doing quite a bit of research I was under impression that neither pure meat (mince) or pure bones are good for dogs. Rather RMB are important and should consist of 75% of the diet.

The problem I have with RMB is how meaty are they? Esp things like: lamb necks or brisket bones...

How can you ever estimate meat to bone ratio?

[DeltaCharlie]

I am still confused about mince vs raw meaty bones (RMB). After doing quite a bit of research I was under impression that neither pure meat (mince) or pure bones are good for dogs. Rather RMB are important and should consist of 75% of the diet.

The problem I have with RMB is how meaty are they? Esp things like: lamb necks or brisket bones...

How can you ever estimate meat to bone ratio?

If their poo is white then you are feeding too much bone. If it is runny then they may need a little more bone. Usually my bones meals consist of chicken frames, duck necks, things like that. Not particularly meaty but they get lots of meat throughout the rest of the week.

[laffi]

I am still confused about mince vs raw meaty bones (RMB). After doing quite a bit of research I was under impression that neither pure meat (mince) or pure bones are good for dogs. Rather RMB are important and should consist of 75% of the diet.

The problem I have with RMB is how meaty are they? Esp things like: lamb necks or brisket bones...

How can you ever estimate meat to bone ratio?

If their poo is white then you are feeding too much bone. If it is runny then they may need a little more bone. Usually my bones meals consist of chicken frames, duck necks, things like that. Not particularly meaty but they get lots of meat throughout the rest of the week.

That's very useful info! Thanks. OK, mine have small, brown, solid poop that turns white after a day. I am guessing that's OK and it turns white because of the high protein content?

[DeltaCharlie]

Probably shouldn't be highjacking somebody elses post. PM me if you like. schaef10 feel free to PM me if you want to aswell.

Yes their poo sounds fine. It will come out really light coloured and they will be a little constipated if they are eating too much bone.

I am still confused about mince vs raw meaty bones (RMB). After doing quite a bit of research I was under impression that neither pure meat (mince) or pure bones are good for dogs. Rather RMB are important and should consist of 75% of the diet.

The problem I have with RMB is how meaty are they? Esp things like: lamb necks or brisket bones...

How can you ever estimate meat to bone ratio?

If their poo is white then you are feeding too much bone. If it is runny then they may need a little more bone. Usually my bones meals consist of chicken frames, duck necks, things like that. Not particularly meaty but they get lots of meat throughout the rest of the week.

That's very useful info! Thanks. OK, mine have small, brown, solid poop that turns white after a day. I am guessing that's OK and it turns white because of the high protein content?

[JulesP]

When I fed Barf I also fed brewers yeast & kelp. It is also ok to feed a meal of table scraps. Also oats. umm and cottage cheese. The basis was always raw meaty bones but you could feed lots of other stuff as well. So veggies are not the only difference.

Not sure were a dog in the wild would get yogurt though?

[DeltaCharlie]

Not sure were a dog in the wild would get yogurt though?

Haha, no I can't either. It was recommended to me by the nutritionist I spoke to in America before I started the diet as an extra source of calcium and because it is full of good bacteria. Its just something that I give now, when I think of it (I always forget to buy plain yoghurt).

I forgot to mention (my memory is shot today sorry) that I feed fish for one of the meat meals each week, its a great source of omega-3. Usually canned tuna/mackeral/sardines/salmon from the supermarket although sometimes I will get them something from the "smelly fish shop" (are they a deli?)

[Fit for a King]

"is he just being a gutso dog or could it be his diet?"

From your avator he's a lab? From my experience ALL labs are gutsos and will eat while ever food is around......

[Guest Tess32]

Ignoring the "mental" aspect of eating for a moment - would meat like chicken fillets or beef fillet be okay to feed?

[Cavandra]

I feed about 60% of their diet RMB, being chicken necks, occassionally turkey necks, chicken carcas/backs, lamb necks or whatever small bones i can find. I cant feed a whole animal to mine as they are too small a dog & would get fat. But I have heard of people buying feeder mice to feed their dogs, but I am not "into " that LOL

Mine get offal like chicken livers/giblets, lamb hearts, brains or whatever I can get, they have that a couple of times a week, sardines/mackeral maybe once a week. an egg maybe evey week to 10 days, mine get very little in the way of fruit & veg as I dont consider it important at all. I do like using herbs though as dogs will crop the herbs/alfalfa etc as they go along

I feed human grade meats.........apart from chicken mince which my butcher does for me at the end of the week & grinds whole carcasses for me., I also have a standard order through my butcher of chicken necks each week that come straight from the factory & are very fresh.........

I use supplements as I see fit, when they need something extra for a reason, things like yoghurt, yakult, cottage cheese I use occassionally when they are cheap, mashed pumpkin for upsets tummys, flax seed oil a coupel of times a week I suppose, kelp, ACV.........There is nothing scientific about the way I feed I just feed as I feel inclined, I have no schedule of days they get this or that, they are all in peak condition.

[niki schaef]

thanks delta charlie thats awesome. so its mainly meat then not bones? i like to give ted a bone everyday when i go out, would this be unneccesary then? do you only fed once a day? say if i gave him a bone in the morning and meat at night would this be ok? or will that be too much bone and will i just turn myself crazy trying to work it all out. thanks heaps for the links too

fit for a king- thats my lab and yes she is a gutso!! but she lives with my parents now. the dog i'm talking bout is my terrierx ted. trying to convince my folks to switch maddie (lab) to a raw diet too.

[DeltaCharlie]

I only feed mine once a day. I went through a stage where I fed them a chicken wing/neck/something like that every morning and didnt give them bones for any of their night meals. It is a fairly relaxed diet once you work out what you are doing, I don't really stick to much routine any more, just feed whatever I pull out of the freezer that night. I just make sure it is roughly 4/2/1 each week.

[Guest Pandii]

Ahh yes, I always forget to tell people that I feed their food frozen. That stops them from gulping down the bones, it takes them longer to eat and means they have to chew their meat, even if it is minced. My dogs love it frozen, especially in summer.

I feed my dogs meat frozen as well and rabbitt is complete with fur and feet

[hopenfox]

Ignoring the "mental" aspect of eating for a moment - would meat like chicken fillets or beef fillet be okay to feed?

Meat fillets are fine to feed as long as they don't contain any small cut bones.

[twoweis]

Fabulous thread everyone; i was just looking for information on raw for a new pup and two adults and am blown away by the response especially from DeltaCharlie ... incredibly informative and will research the websites suggested and thanks heaps for your time

fyi; here are the three muskateers (my original big wei girl in the avatar lost early due to tumour; hoping maybe excellent diet could prevent? ... although she did have a pretty good one) thanks again

[niki schaef]

just want to say thanks to everyone for helping me out but got a couple more questions

i'm a bit confused over the raw meaty bones aspect. are things such as necks etc classed as a bone meal or meat meal? sorry thats probably a stupid question. i'm guessing anything with bone is a bone meal? and any cuts of meat whether its whole, minced or diced is ok for the meat part?

one more question on how much to feed. i'm going to trial ted on aroun 2.5% body weight. hes ideal weight is 8kg so thats 200gm of food a day? (i think my maths is working!! 8 x 0.025 is that right?) does that then mean that every day he needs about 200gm of food a day whether it is bone meat or offal? and the percentages then work themselves out over the week? i get that its trial and error (if hes fat feed less, skinny more) i just need a starting point!!

oops just thought of another with the fishy bit, is any fish ok to feed. i've read of some people feeding fish heads and whole fish? they don't get all the little bones stuck?

and is there ANYTHING to steer clear of? and should everything be frozen before giving it? can it then be defrosted or does that defeat the purpose?

thanks to all who have helped out. and to those who have asked additional questions that i didnt think of i'm looking forward to starting the diet it should be fun and exciting, i guess for ted too and easy i went to the butcher/supermarket yesterday and got a few things to start with and couldn't believe the variety! and cheap too it was great!!

[wylie]

Hi Schaef10

In regards to your dogs weight dont think about that so much. The best bet is to go by feel. If he has a nice covering over his ribs and has a waist then he is at the perfect weight.

Small dogs actually probably need more than 2- 3% of there body weight. They burn energy, get cold quickly and thus need more.

Start at 3-4% and work up and down from there.

Big and little dogs can be fed fish. you may want to be a bit more careful with fine bones with a smaller dog though.

Anything with bone in it a bone and meat meal. Hearts are muscle and are considered a meat meal.

It is best to look at what you feed over say a month to make sure your dog is getting everything it needs.

One of the things you can do with a small dog is cut up a whole chicken into 8-10 pieces and give them out over the month. If you can get rabbit the same. Add in some hearts, a few meals of fish (canned salmon is a great meal) a couple of eggs a week, some good meaty lamb pieces and bobs your uncle.

Please remember that you need to introduce new food slowly otherwise you can get really good cannon butt.

Have fun its the best way to do it.