Calming A Highly Strung Dog

[Pockets]

K9: no, no...

I would stimulate the dogs drive, for say a toy, then teach it to do something, very simple to win the toy.. Then increase the learned moves to win the toy, making the dogs mental state go from high drive peak to drive initialisation tires the mind.

oh ok, thought that was a silly question....

so if say I go down to the park with one of my dogs and do something on the other side, she can get Libby to focus on her and when she does she gets the toy as praise for not reacting to the other dog and focusing on Rachelle? and would you then move into trying to work the dog? and reward with the toy?

Sorry if these are silly questions but I am just interested

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: Your asking me to give you a step by step to something that it pretty complicated. Look up my thread on Training in drive & get an insight...

[Pockets]

K9: Your asking me to give you a step by step to something that it pretty complicated. Look up my thread on Training in drive & get an insight...

Thanks will do

[MarkS]

I agree with Steve.

When I was talking about running.. I didn't mean just taking your dog for a run. This will not satisfy the dogs drive. I meant working your dog in drive and yes selecting games where your dog can also exhaust not only its mental energy, but also its physical energy. Yes mental stimulation happens when working your dog in drive. Your dog needs to focus, and drive training is the best way to achieve this, but make it physically challenging as well. We can work a dog in food drive, but not exhaust it's physical energy.

I still believe that a high drive dog that is restricted from expressing its natural drive instincts can become a very stressed dog. Making a dog work for all its rewards is working the dog in drive. Even though we say we give our dogs plenty of exercise, this usually means at the most a couple of hours a day. What about the other 22 hours it's confined to, in the dogs mind, a sterile backyard?

Some dogs were just never meant to be confined for long periods of time, in a small yard, and high drive dogs become mentaly bored very quickly, and also if it has high energy levels can become very stressed.

When you bring your dog home from its fortnightly herding, what is your dogs temperament like for the rest of the day?

Working breeds with extrememly high levels of (herding) drive should be on farms, and not confined to a yard. When a person says to me that extended periods of exercise and drive work is not an option, we are not looking at what is best for the dog.

Without sounding mean, many in society tend to focus on their own needs and not the needs of their dogs. Not suggesting it's the case here. We should all sit down and decide if we really believe we are doing what is best for our dog, and not placing our own interests first. We can't make a dog do what it instinctively is not capable of doing. Trying to suppress drive for long periods, isn't fair on these types of dogs.

[Pockets]

Mark - The dogs behaviour does not really change after herding, I dont beleive that herding everyday would help this dog at all...JMO

I think that sending this dog to the farm is the easy way out, never mind the other effects it will have on the dog, seperation anxiety, stress from leaving its pack, its home etc...this would not be in the best interest of the dog, the dog is at home during the day, but goes for a big run and ball game in the mornign followed by a swim and a walk and off lead run, sometimes with my dogs aswell.......

I think this dog has issues a little deeper than just high drive, I think it could also be fear related too (type of first in best dresses scenario)

[RachelleBuck]

It is interesting how when I say that she is a BCxKoolie people just say she should be out working in a farm and not on a house block. Maybe if I said this was my poodle I may have got that answers I was after. It is fine for you all to say that she is a working dog but the facts be known would never be a good one. For one she wool classes and it bloody rough with her sheep for the first 15 mintues or so. No farmer would stand for that. She is still the same Libby when she gets home as the one I left with and nothing changes.

I was simply asking has anyone used a DAP and if they found them to work or not and would it have any effect on my other dogs. My behaviourist that has seen this dog recommened it and I was just wanting to talk to people who had used them before as to what they are like.

I know about drive training but it seems to me people are saying drive training but not what drive your dog should be in be it pack, prey or defence.

I am just after help not for everyone to say how horrible I am for keeping her in the suburbs. She doesn't sit in a back yard 22 hours a day by herself. Not only is she taken out the yard about 4 of those hours but is inside whenever someone is home or with someone outside. She has a kong daily and also has another bc x koolie and a koolie to play with. not to mention the some 20 or so differant toys they have and the swimming pool and the sand pit that i put treats in for her to find. I give her bones to chew on during the day also.

I have seen a behaviourist that has known the dog for the past 2 years and I would recommend to anyone. I want to make sure I fully understand a DAP before I use one in my home as I don't take medicating my dog lightly. As R&A mention she also has dog to dog fear agression made 10 times worse by her being so highly strung.

NOW has anyone used a DAP and found they worked or anything like this that may work!!!!!

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: I guess the problem is, we dont know your dog for two years.

DAP will have some calming effect to a nervy dog, yes I have used them, have tested them in our testing programs & the results are good.

If your dog is under stimulated it will have little effect on its own.

The breed of your dog to me is irrelavant, the amount of PREY drive it is said to have is why I would suggest training in prey drive...

[MarkS]

Just re-reading your initial post. Maybe we are not looking at an overly high drive dog. Maybe we are looking at a dog that has learnt to control its environment by being over the top. Maybe all your dog needs/seeks is some strict and assertive leadership. You say your dog will not sit for more than a few seconds. In all honestly it shouldn't matter how much drive your dog has, you as packleader should be able to make your dog sit and stay sitting. Have you considered the possibility your training methods are not working? Also that you are not being assertive enough?

Do you feel confident around her? Do you project leadership qualities to her? Are you sure she isn't continually testing you due to some inconsistancy in your relationship with her? Do you ensure consistant rules. Do you mistakenly reinforce assertive behaviour in her? Do you pay attention to her when she is displaying assertive body language? Dogs are a product of their environment, and the strongest influence is you. Earlier its stated that she adores you, and I think follows you everywhere. I think there are some very strong clues here.

Just maybe you are not seeing the entire picture as it really is from your dogs point of view.

[Pockets]

Libby can do a sit stay, I think Rachelle meant that she wont sit still for 2 seconds meaning like she wont relax in general....not when training and giving commands...

I have seen Libby do a sit and a drop stay and when she is given a command she has excellent focus and will not move unless given her release word..

[Arya]

Rachelle, I am not being disrespectful but every two weeks can be a long time between drinks for a working Dog.

Trying to look at all angles and eliminating all possibilites, has the dog had a hair analysis or similar to rule out any inbalance?

Rachelle,have you explored training in drive?

I agree totally with Mark about medication.Many times medication only masks the real problem/s.

Rachelle,is your Father"s Dog working stock?

It would be interesting to see changes in this Dog if she were in an enviroment where she was working nearly every day.

Tony

Rachelle, I am totally with Tony here from the pov that I think your dog is just needing work!!! I am not saying this for sure, you understand, as I have never seen your dog. But here are my suggestions for you to try. I would totally reassess my training strategy. GO HIGH ACTION EVERY DAY!!!! I am serious. And I don't just mean long walks here. I would look at sitting down one night with a pen and paper and making a list of games your dog likes to play. Is she into ball games? Is she into tug games? Is she into going crazy with her doggy friends? Seriously, how much do you play, work with her? When you have your list, make a 'plan of attack' and write it down too.

If she is high action, high drive, give her something to think about while you are utilising these abilities. They are ABILITIES NOT LIABILITIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! My advice, from hard won experience, is to look at it like that. Not highly strung - high action superdog!!!

Does she like frisbee? Does she like recall games? Incorporate them into more formal training. Get her into a safe park on her own, or in your yard on her own and interact in a high action way with her. Heel her for a few paces, then chuck a ball when she's doing it right. Throw frisbee then ask for recall on the way back. Run with her. All sorts. Teach her Agility stuff if you can. Have her jumping over small hurdles and racing back to you. Have tug of wars with a big piece of rope.

Lots of stuff you can do like that will satisfy her need to work and also, calm her right down by satisfying her drive.

IF THAT IS THE PROBLEM, THAT IS. It won't hurt to give it a shot though. One thing, I know it is not always convenient work-wise or easy physically for some to do this sort of thing. Easy for me who works for myself to preach but not so easy for some to do. But what do you think? Have you tried this approach? Maybe can you go or do a distance K9 drive course?

Good luck

[Arya]

K9: I guess the problem is, we dont know your dog for two years.

DAP will have some calming effect to a nervy dog, yes I have used them, have tested them in our testing programs & the results are good.

If your dog is under stimulated it will have little effect on its own.

The breed of your dog to me is irrelavant, the amount of PREY drive it is said to have is why I would suggest training in prey drive...

DAP was pretty useless for me with my GSD I must say and I worked out it only works for very specific problems from others I've spoken to.

This said, I remember you once commenting here to me K9 that you suspected my dog was not nearly as soft and nervy as I thought she was when I was having trouble with her... and you've never even seen the dog but guess what, I discovered you were absolutely dead right!!!!

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: In your case your dog was probably not sioft in nerve meaning DAP served no purpose...

Thats two to me lol..

[Tonymc]

Rachelle,a wool classing Dog gets alot better with Work and appropriate guidance.I mean as in a rural enviroment where work is much more constant.

Apart from that Rachelle,you have two very very good trainers here Steve and Mark and I am sure they will present a workable option for you. Tony

[Arya]

K9: In your case your dog was probably not sioft in nerve meaning DAP served no purpose...

Thats two to me lol..

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Damn... but I'm glad you were right and I was wrong

[RachelleBuck]

Arya, thanks for your advise. I have tried this before but you just make her worse. Everything needs to be calm with Libby but I may give another shot to check.

Thanks everyone for you suggestions I will take them to my behaviourist as other opions and see what he says,

Thanks

rachelle

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: so am I, but for different reasons... lol

[Arya]

K9: so am I, but for different reasons... lol

Yup...

[Kelpie-i]

Hi Rachellebuck, I have only stumbled accross this thread and if possible I will add my 20c worth.

Unfortuntately, whilst it may add some dimension to the problem, there isn't much in the way of help or vet assistance here in Australia as the Australian Veterinary association will not approve any research for this condition here in Oz.....anyway, here are my thoughts on your dog's behaviour.

Way back when I was studying to become a behaviourist, I did a thesis on a condition called "Hyperkinesis" which is a form of ADD in dogs. Now before everyone goes jumping up and down and says" Kelpie-i have you lost your mind?". Hyperkinesis has been scientifcally proven to exist in dogs via the studies done in the US, with many tests being done on dogs suspected of having this condition.

Dogs suspected of having Hyperkinesis have been described as being on the go continuously and never having an off switch..."frantic" was one word they used. Their heart rates are constantly at a high level as is their stress levels as they cannot find a means to relax. Their pupils are almost always dialated and in severe cases, the dogs always pant and can even become aggressive. They very rarely drink water! The dogs tested showed varying degrees of the condition from mild to severe.

The way of testing for Hyperkinesis was done by taking a reading of the dog's pulse before administering the drug (I forget the name and will need to look back at my notes). Once the drug was given, the dog was left alone for 1 hour and then the pulse was taken again. If the dog was suffering from the condition, the pulse rate would lower dramatically to almost normal levels from one dosage. The dog would then be put on a regular dosage to keep the levels at a stable and normal rate. The dogs who responded to the treatment were later descibed as being as close to "normal" as possible and learning and rehabilitation could now take place as the dogs were now in a calmer state of mind. The dogs who did not respond to the treatment continued to display the behaviour as the drug did not work on them as it was intended to.

Now, I am not sure if your dog shows any of the characteristics I mentioned above and we cannot be 100% certain that this is the condition bothering him as many dogs are just naturally highly strung, but just the fact that you say that your dog is continuously hyperactive may be a small clue to the problem. Hyperkinesis is seen mainly in working type breeds like GSDs and Heelers etc.

If you wish to research Hyerkinesis, William Campbell has a book and some thesis papers on the subject which is a great read.

Many years ago, I had a dog come to class (Blue heeler x) funnily enough, whom I was 100% certain had this condition. I gave the owner all the information that I had at the time and asked her to go to see her vet. As suspected, the vet was no help as they don't have too much knolwedge about the condition but he did put the dog on chlomicalm which did seem to help the dog a little. The owner was at least able to start teaching her dogs some things instead of the dog acting wild all the time.

Just to add that the drug used for Hyperkinises is not a calming drug, rather the opposite but it works in reverse for those with true Hyperkinesis.

Please don't get me wrong as I am not an advocate in the use of drugs for dogs, but sometimes they do help in getting the problem to a manageable state where you can then start a rehab process with the dog.

Hope this helps some....!

[zoezoom]

Well said Tonymc! Couldn't agree more. It's a good idea to stand back and calmly think about our own behaviour first and take it from there. Working breeds need exercise and plenty of brain stimulation or they will make their own amusement.

[Kelpie-i]

Well said Tonymc! Couldn't agree more. It's a good idea to stand back and calmly think about our own behaviour first and take it from there. Working breeds need exercise and plenty of brain stimulation or they will make their own amusement.

Yes very true, but in this case it would be wise to rule out any medical reason for the dog's intense hyperactivity. I own working dogs and whilst they are extremely active, they do have their an off switch. A dog that continues this behaviour each waking moment is not displaying normal or even higher than normal levels of activity.

I make this call merely by what the OP stated in her opening thread, so it could very well be a case of a naturally highly strung dog, but just want to point out that there could be an underlying medical problem for it.