Pockets Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 Ruby has two issues that we are trying to combat at the moment... 1) She has become very toy possessive and if another dog comes near her toy , she will growl, or quickly snap and pick it up, she got so worked up yesterday with Ranger coming near her toy that she actually bared her teeth as I was holding her...At the moment if she does it, she gets the toy taken off her and sometimes gets put back on lead and sort of a time out session. I think she learnt this behaviour with my Kelpie as he is very vocal when he plays with his toys, yet sometimes he will growl at her if she goes near him when he has one aswell.... 2) Ever since Ruby got attacked by the other GSD at training (for those who do not know when Ruby was sitting next to me at training a big male GSD ran up from behind her, lunged on her back and bit her - she got so scared she nipped and also was scared that she released her anal glands) she has become very very clingy and will not leave my side, she is very hesitant to play with other dogs, if a dog come up behind her she gets very nervous and will occasionally turn around and nip. An example of this is a white sheppie yesterday at Kepala kept nipping Ruby on the back as she ran to chase the ball (the white sheppie was doing this in play, not aggression or anything) Ruby eventually turned around and chased and nipped at the shepherd. It makes me so sad that she doesnt want to go and play with other dogs, I dont want her to be so clingy, does anybody suggest a way that I can combat this, it was made a suggestion that I should ignore her and turn away, but I would feel terrible, she is obviously nervous around other dogs and looks to me for protection and confidence, I dont want to ignore her as I would feel horrible. I do give her lots of praise, pats and cuddles when there is another dog sniffing her etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 Hi Ruby&Axel Two things I wouldn't do with a dog with those problems is A: Take it to Kepala (problem will only get worse) and B: praise and cuddle dog while it is fearfull. I wouldn't worry about her not wanting to play with other dogs.............she is obviously quite comfortable about it. Nothing to be sad about. I wish my own dog would be less interested in other dogs! I think it is great that she thinks you are more interesting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pockets Posted January 14, 2008 Author Share Posted January 14, 2008 (edited) Hi Ruby&AxelTwo things I wouldn't do with a dog with those problems is A: Take it to Kepala (problem will only get worse) and B: praise and cuddle dog while it is fearfull. I wouldn't worry about her not wanting to play with other dogs.............she is obviously quite comfortable about it. Nothing to be sad about. I wish my own dog would be less interested in other dogs! I think it is great that she thinks you are more interesting! She is fine at Kepala, I pat her and praise her when there are other dogs around, saying hello to her, so she knows it is a good thing, she is not being fearful at the time, she usually has a happy expression on her face and when I pat her and tell her she is a good girl she wags her tail and is relaxed around the other dog...I also do the same when she instigates the introduction with another dog.. I am probably making the issues sound worse than they actually are, they are only minor issues, I think she is just lacking confidence since the incident with the other dog ages ago... Kepala is a great place for socialisation as it is very calm and the dogs wander around at their own leisure..By not having her in these situations how can I combat these issues? By removing her from the situation I beleive is only masking the issues, I would rather solve them.... I have no problem with her thinking I am more interesting than the other dogs at all, I just dont want her to be so clingy, I want to boost her confidence, not so much so that she will go run rampid with the other dogs... Edited January 14, 2008 by Ruby&Axel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrunoBella Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 Kepala is a great place for socialisation as it is very calm and the dogs wander around at their own leisure..By not having her in these situations how can I combat these issues? By removing her from the situation I beleive is only masking the issues, I would rather solve them....I have no problem with her thinking I am more interesting than the other dogs at all, I just dont want her to be so clingy, I want to boost her confidence, not so much so that she will go run rampid with the other dogs... I had a very similar problem with Bella who was attacked twice in the same fashion. She developed mild fear agression from these encounters. I agree with dogdude, by exposing her to other dogs off lead you are putting her under pressure not helping her to get over her fears. To get over her fears you need to introduce her to other dogs under controlled circumstances, eg, good, balanced dogs that you know. I went to see K9 Force to help fix this and I feel you need to get Ruby assessed professionally as well and work out a plan. I also agree with the advice of ignoring Ruby when she's stressed. Dogs don't think like human and they don't gain confidence from you comforing them. They gain confidence from doing things by themselves and some dogs don't like playing with other dogs. I brought Bruno up very differently from Bella. He has never been to an off lead park and never played with dogs except those of my friends. He is perfectly happy, well balanced and has not problems with meating dogs. Bella will always suffer from my not knowing all these things. If Ruby growls at another dog and then at you when you take the toy off her I would growl back. I would suggest taking the toys away at times and putting them in a box so they know that you own the toys. This should stop the growling at you. Good luck BellasPerson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 Ruby&Axel 3 Questions: How old is Ruby? : Do you think that she was a social dog before the attack? : How many dogs do you think that Ruby should meet before you class her as socialised? :How often are further attacks going to happen if she continues to meet packs of strange dogs in an uncontrolled enviroment? (Yes.......I have been to a Kepala meet before, and there was more than one aggressive dominant dog there running around totally uncontrolled) (that is why I no longer choose to go there) I understand that the initial attack happened at an obedience club, but at least they are generally a controlled enviroment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrunoBella Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 Ruby&Axle This is the post I read when I was trying to work out what to do about Bruno. Socialisation and Neutralisation BP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pockets Posted January 14, 2008 Author Share Posted January 14, 2008 (edited) Kepala is a great place for socialisation as it is very calm and the dogs wander around at their own leisure..By not having her in these situations how can I combat these issues? By removing her from the situation I beleive is only masking the issues, I would rather solve them....I have no problem with her thinking I am more interesting than the other dogs at all, I just dont want her to be so clingy, I want to boost her confidence, not so much so that she will go run rampid with the other dogs... I had a very similar problem with Bella who was attacked twice in the same fashion. She developed mild fear agression from these encounters. I agree with dogdude, by exposing her to other dogs off lead you are putting her under pressure not helping her to get over her fears. To get over her fears you need to introduce her to other dogs under controlled circumstances, eg, good, balanced dogs that you know. I went to see K9 Force to help fix this and I feel you need to get Ruby assessed professionally as well and work out a plan. I also agree with the advice of ignoring Ruby when she's stressed. Dogs don't think like human and they don't gain confidence from you comforing them. They gain confidence from doing things by themselves and some dogs don't like playing with other dogs. I brought Bruno up very differently from Bella. He has never been to an off lead park and never played with dogs except those of my friends. He is perfectly happy, well balanced and has not problems with meating dogs. Bella will always suffer from my not knowing all these things. If Ruby growls at another dog and then at you when you take the toy off her I would growl back. I would suggest taking the toys away at times and putting them in a box so they know that you own the toys. This should stop the growling at you. Good luck BellasPerson Oh No she doesnt growl at me only at the other dog, sorry if I insunuated that she growled at me! I take the toy off her and ignore her and usually walk off, or put her on lead and put her in a sit and wait till she is relaxed and then give her a release command. She doesnt do it all the time, only occasionally, most dogs dont get a chance she always has a toy in her mouth, when she is playing ball if another dog beats her to it she doesnt care, she just likes the chase.. Ruby&Axel3 Questions: How old is Ruby? 1.5years : Do you think that she was a social dog before the attack? Yes she was social and generally still is : How many dogs do you think that Ruby should meet before you class her as socialised? I dont think anyone can answer that one. :How often are further attacks going to happen if she continues to meet packs of strange dogs in an uncontrolled enviroment? (Yes.......I have been to a Kepala meet before, and there was more than one aggressive dominant dog there running around totally uncontrolled) (that is why I no longer choose to go there) its not an uncontrolled environment, all the owners were there and all the dogs were quite calm and relaxed and dogs seem to match themselves up to one another etc, she was on lead to start with and I walked her up and down the runs with lots of praise and then let her off when she was relaxed. I understand that the initial attack happened at an obedience club, but at least they are generally a controlled enviroment. Edited January 14, 2008 by Ruby&Axel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 Ruby&Axle This is the post I read when I was trying to work out what to do about Bruno. Socialisation and Neutralisation BP Gee...there is a lot of reading in that thread..............I was looking for something interesting to read.....Thanks BP! Good luck, and I hope you get your problem soughted R&A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 (edited) R&A - I don't know you or your dogs so my understanding of your dog's history is a bit lacking but... An example of this is a white sheppie yesterday at Kepala kept nipping Ruby on the back as she ran to chase the ball (the white sheppie was doing this in play, not aggression or anything) Ruby eventually turned around and chased and nipped at the shepherd. I don't blame Ruby one bit for giving some back! That would be very threatening for her and difficult to interpret as "play". I'd probably do more than nip in that situation Although my young dog is fairly OTT he is very submissive with other dogs and I am very careful to make sure that he does not become stressed by a behaviour that looks like playing. I won't let him be chased by other dogs - I don't mean the type of play when the chasey game goes back and forth but when one dog is a little too dominant and simply chases without giving way. Many owners think this is just normal behaviour and will often say to me "oh they're just playing!" Nup - I don't allow my dog to do it to others and I won't have it done to him. If it does happen I call him straight to me then stand between him and the other dog (I'll even growl at the other dog if it is really pushy) as if to say "It's ok, mate - no need for you to defend yourself, that's my job." Also, when we are at the beach I never, ever take toys to play with unless it is a squeaky tug that rewards Zig for a good recall. There's plenty to do on a free run without constantly chasing a ball and I see quite a lot of dogs become very protective of their toys when another dog comes over to say hello. Ziggy gets to play fetch at home as part of his training. On re-reading I sound like some sort of over protective crazy woman ETA: I meant to add that I tend to go to the beach fairly early in the morning so there are only 1 or 2 dogs on the beach to interact with - much easier situation to control in terms of socialisation. Edited January 14, 2008 by The Spotted Devil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pockets Posted January 14, 2008 Author Share Posted January 14, 2008 I told Ruby off for having a nip at the other shepherd, only because I dont want her to think its okay to do that, it is the other owners job to tell the other dog off, not my dogs....But the other owner was telling her dog off, but her dog just wanted to play etc.. I take my dogs for a walk at 5am in the morning and they get an off lead run through the park on the way home, then they get another walk at night time. They also go to obedience and get to go and meet some of their friends down at the off lead park aswell... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 Sorry to be blunt but its your job to interfere in that situation so that Ruby doesn't have to tell the other dog off- regardless of what the other owner is doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 She is fine at Kepala, I pat her and praise her when there are other dogs around, saying hello to her, so she knows it is a good thing, she is not being fearful at the time, she usually has a happy expression on her face and when I pat her and tell her she is a good girl she wags her tail and is relaxed around the other dog...I also do the same when she instigates the introduction with another dog.. I find this part difficult - as while you may be thinking you are 'rewarding' her for nice *calm* behaviour - are you really sure that you are? Just because she isn't reacting, doesn't mean that she may not be 'thinking' about it. Speaking from experience with another issue....... while you think you are doing the right thing, you may be inadvertently rewarding something else. I am probably making the issues sound worse than they actually are, they are only minor issues, I think she is just lacking confidence since the incident with the other dog ages ago... Then it's great that you are taking action now. Trying to fix a 'small problem, which might not even be there'... is better than fixing a huge problem Kepala is a great place for socialisation as it is very calm and the dogs wander around at their own leisure..By not having her in these situations how can I combat these issues? By removing her from the situation I beleive is only masking the issues, I would rather solve them.... Depends - you did say she had a few times there where she was un-nerved. Perhaps keep her out of the lagoon area/ area where the mad zoomies are happening (heightened excitement etc... as well as other dogs not thinking what they are doing)... or perhaps have her on lead there. I think that from what you have said - free reign at Kepala won't build up her confidence just yet. But that doesn't mean leave her at home - by her being 'there' but not interacting will not affect her but actually may be beneficial. I have no problem with her thinking I am more interesting than the other dogs at all, I just dont want her to be so clingy, I want to boost her confidence, not so much so that she will go run rampid with the other dogs... For the moment - you are her security blanket. If you can reward her for 'focus' while there are other dogs zooming around her - she will realise she won't be bothered when with you - you *will* look after her. I believe that when she begins to get confident again in that fact, she will be more willing to leave your side. As for toys - hard to do at Kepala but give her a few goes on her own and if Axle chases toys - then also hold her back while she watches him get it (praising her and telling her how good she is for doing so)... If she gets snitchy with ANY dog - game ends, toy goes away, lead goes on without a word and you LEAVE.... if at Kepala, maybe leave for a few mins and do NOTHING exciting.... why should she be 'rewarded' for that behaviour etc. Perhaps even bring a crate and set that up?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pockets Posted January 14, 2008 Author Share Posted January 14, 2008 She is fine at Kepala, I pat her and praise her when there are other dogs around, saying hello to her, so she knows it is a good thing, she is not being fearful at the time, she usually has a happy expression on her face and when I pat her and tell her she is a good girl she wags her tail and is relaxed around the other dog...I also do the same when she instigates the introduction with another dog.. I find this part difficult - as while you may be thinking you are 'rewarding' her for nice *calm* behaviour - are you really sure that you are? Just because she isn't reacting, doesn't mean that she may not be 'thinking' about it. Speaking from experience with another issue....... while you think you are doing the right thing, you may be inadvertently rewarding something else. No I can read her body language, when a dog comes up to her,she will go out and say hello, thats when I tell her shes a good girl and rewards her with lots of praise and encouragement, if I find she is getting under confident, I will call her away and take her for a walk, I think her main problem is that she either wants to chase a ball, or be swimming in the lagoon as she is only clingy to me when we are in the grassed yard. Maybe its just boredom? She doesnt react to another dog coming up to her, no growls, bite etc, she just prefers a gentle hello... I am probably making the issues sound worse than they actually are, they are only minor issues, I think she is just lacking confidence since the incident with the other dog ages ago... Then it's great that you are taking action now. Trying to fix a 'small problem, which might not even be there'... is better than fixing a huge problem Yeah as I said, its only a minor problem that I am noticing atm, but I would rather try and fix it now than wait for it to get to big... Kepala is a great place for socialisation as it is very calm and the dogs wander around at their own leisure..By not having her in these situations how can I combat these issues? By removing her from the situation I beleive is only masking the issues, I would rather solve them.... Depends - you did say she had a few times there where she was un-nerved. Perhaps keep her out of the lagoon area/ area where the mad zoomies are happening (heightened excitement etc... as well as other dogs not thinking what they are doing)... or perhaps have her on lead there. I think that from what you have said - free reign at Kepala won't build up her confidence just yet. But that doesn't mean leave her at home - by her being 'there' but not interacting will not affect her but actually may be beneficial. When she is in the lagoon, she keeps to herself and swims after the toys etc, she doesnt pay attention to the other dogs at all, so thats not a problem at all. I think if she growls over toys, I will just take it off her, and walk off and ignore her.....If that doesnt work I will remove the toy and put her on lead... I have no problem with her thinking I am more interesting than the other dogs at all, I just dont want her to be so clingy, I want to boost her confidence, not so much so that she will go run rampid with the other dogs... For the moment - you are her security blanket. If you can reward her for 'focus' while there are other dogs zooming around her - she will realise she won't be bothered when with you - you *will* look after her. I believe that when she begins to get confident again in that fact, she will be more willing to leave your side. As for toys - hard to do at Kepala but give her a few goes on her own and if Axle chases toys - then also hold her back while she watches him get it (praising her and telling her how good she is for doing so)... If she gets snitchy with ANY dog - game ends, toy goes away, lead goes on without a word and you LEAVE.... if at Kepala, maybe leave for a few mins and do NOTHING exciting.... why should she be 'rewarded' for that behaviour etc. Perhaps even bring a crate and set that up?! Axel tends to only chase the toys when Ruby does, but I will definatly give it a go Thanks for your help LP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pockets Posted January 14, 2008 Author Share Posted January 14, 2008 Sorry to be blunt but its your job to interfere in that situation so that Ruby doesn't have to tell the other dog off- regardless of what the other owner is doing. Your absolutly right, I just didnt think it was my place to tell someone else dog off and I didnt want to punish Ruby by stopping the game, but after talking to someone afterwards, I decided if something happens involving my dog I will from now on step in.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrunoBella Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 Oh No she doesnt growl at me only at the other dog, sorry if I insunuated that she growled at me!I take the toy off her and ignore her and usually walk off, or put her on lead and put her in a sit and wait till she is relaxed and then give her a release command. She doesnt do it all the time, only occasionally, most dogs dont get a chance she always has a toy in her mouth, when she is playing ball if another dog beats her to it she doesnt care, she just likes the chase.. That's great . Much easier to fix if she doesn't growl at you. Great post leopuppy04 Dogdude, it will take quite a while to read the entire post but it's worth it. BP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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