German Shephard Hips.

[alananddora]

Hi All,

I hope someone can provide me with some advise on an issue that has come up with our 6 month old GSD.

This info was posted in a previous post in the puppy section but I wanted to post here to see if anyone else has come across this issue before and how it worked itself out.

Three weekends ago Jasmine was off leash at Cenntenial park and she got bundled over by a large GSD male - all in good sprit but she took a nasty tumble and then started limping the next day. We rested her for two days and then the following day she ran about a bit and starting limping and hopping on her rear leg again.

We took her to the vets and was then admitted during the day for xrays. The report is below -

"On exam under sedation - there was no real cranial movement in her stifle.

On manipulation of her hips there was evidence of restriction in movement/angulation.

Xrays were taken of her hips and stifles.

No fractures or chips were evident on xrays.

On the xrays of her hips - there were slight changes to femoral head shape and ability to sit on the acetabulum - which will be important to monitor as she gets older. She is too young to score her hips.

At this stage to treat her stifle injury as a soft tissue trama.

Rimadyl 100mg chews - .25 tablet morning and evening...."

I would not have thought that we had been overexercising her. Sure she had gone on some walks of up to 30 minutes, but this was only 1-2 times per week and was done on grass. Having said that these are now going to be cut out completely so as not to risk further deterioration. Jasmine used to have the run of the whole backyard, I have also restricted that now to her dog run and an area of grass all on one level (its about 10m by 3m - more than enough room for her).

My question is given the diagnosis above does this mean Jasmine will not have properly formed hips as an adult? Is this damage irreversible?

Given large breed puppies should not have excessive exercise is the best thing to do is to wrap her in cotton wool until she is 12 months plus due to the above?

Your advise and opinions would be welcome.

Thanks

Alan.

[Poodle wrangler]

On the xrays of her hips - there were slight changes to femoral head shape and ability to sit on the acetabulum - which will be important to monitor as she gets older. She is too young to score her hips..................."

They don't want to say much, do they?

"Changes" really is hedging bets, but implies there's some problem evident in the way the top of the thigh bone (femoral head) sits in the hip joint (acetabulum).

The femoral head is like a ball and the acetabulum is the socket it sits in. The vet normally has little models to show you how the joint works.

Muscles and ligaments also support the hip joint, so all is not lost if those minor changes continue.

Yes, I'd be cautious with her and follow breeders advice about growing large breed dogs

e.g. Keep a lean weight, use large breed puppy food (if feeding dry), short walks only, no jumping/leaping/ carry-on that is hard on growing joints.

Were her 'parents' hip scored? What was the results?

[Guest magnum]

Hi Alan,

I would discuss with your pups breeder as they would know Our puppies run wild all day, I once wrapped them up, but know I'm careful but I still let them me dogs. So far so good with ours, touch wood.

Good luck with your puppy..

[EISHUND]

Given large breed puppies should not have excessive exercise is the best thing to do is to wrap her in cotton wool until she is 12 months plus due to the above?

Free puppy play, no rough play. I wouldn't wrap her up in cotton wool, she still needs exercise. I personally feel that a dog will have good or bad hips regardless. If environmental impacts greatly on a result, I think that the dog had to be genetically predisposed to the condition anyway.

This is only my opinion of course. My boy was an extremely overactive pup, bowled over a million times, jolted his hips with his quick stops to catch a ball, tumbled over kicked by a horse. His x-rays; perfect! 0's all round. !

If you are really worried about hips and want an indication to put your mind at ease (before she reaches 12months), look into PennHip.

eta: and yes, as Magnum as said above, speak to her breeder.

Edited January 10, 2008 by LuvMyWhiteShep

[Miranda]

I doubt that exercise has caused the abnormalities in your puppy's hips, IMO a dog has to be predisposed to HD and although overexercising may exacerbate an existing problem I don't believe that exercise is a primary cause of HD.

From what you have written your puppy's hips don't appear normal and it is unlikely that they will improve as she ages as hip joint abnormalities generally worsen with age. However I wouldn't greatly restrict free exercise, make sure that you keep her reasonably muscled up as that's what holds everything together.

When she is 12 months I would get her xrayed again and make sure that you use a vet who is experienced in the field. If you wish you can have a preliminary xray done prior to 12 months using PennHip.

[alananddora]

On the xrays of her hips - there were slight changes to femoral head shape and ability to sit on the acetabulum - which will be important to monitor as she gets older. She is too young to score her hips..................."

They don't want to say much, do they?

"Changes" really is hedging bets, but implies there's some problem evident in the way the top of the thigh bone (femoral head) sits in the hip joint (acetabulum).

The femoral head is like a ball and the acetabulum is the socket it sits in. The vet normally has little models to show you how the joint works.

Muscles and ligaments also support the hip joint, so all is not lost if those minor changes continue.

Yes, I'd be cautious with her and follow breeders advice about growing large breed dogs

e.g. Keep a lean weight, use large breed puppy food (if feeding dry), short walks only, no jumping/leaping/ carry-on that is hard on growing joints.

Were her 'parents' hip scored? What was the results?

Hi Poodle Wrangler,

From that perspective the vet did show us the model and the xrays. From ny layman's terms there was a straightening of the ball and apparently, the socket was not as "encompassing" as it should be on normal dogs. All of these comments by the vet were tempered by her saying this is not to say they will not be good when she gets to twelve months.

Her parents sire (cayos) and dame (Kalrach Kiss T) both had good hip scores.

Not sure how to do multiple quotes... (-;

Hi Luvmywhiteshep,

My comments were more relative to her previous activity play - I will still keep her in good shape but I know what you mean.

What's PennHip?

Miranda, et all

My original question I guess was more to do with the following - how much can an owner of a large breed trust the xrays of a six month old GSD considering she has another 12 months of growing? Assume - the small changes in xrays were due to environment and not predisposition and these environmental impacts are eliminated from the remaining growth period - could I expect her to have 0 hip score at adulthood?

Sorry for all the questions, but my concern is quite big at the mo.

She is going back to the vets tonight for a check up on her soft tissue injury.

Thanks again,

Alan.

[Ahona]

I can only reply as an owner, but not as a breeder/show person.

If my dogs hips looked like they were likely to have issues at 6 months, then I would do all I can to ensure that I helped correct that. Curtail exercise, move her/him to a low protein food (eg EP for large/giant breed dogs), fish oil and glucosamine supplements as well!

Good luck

[EISHUND]

Her parents sire (cayos) and dame (Kalrach Kiss T) both had good hip scores.

Not sure how to do multiple quotes... (-;

Hi Luvmywhiteshep,

My comments were more relative to her previous activity play - I will still keep her in good shape but I know what you mean.

What's PennHip?

Miranda, et all

My original question I guess was more to do with the following - how much can an owner of a large breed trust the xrays of a six month old GSD considering she has another 12 months of growing? Assume - the small changes in xrays were due to environment and not predisposition and these environmental impacts are eliminated from the remaining growth period - could I expect her to have 0 hip score at adulthood?

Sorry for all the questions, but my concern is quite big at the mo.

PennHip measures joint laxity (they have a website that has the exact details about the type of xray), a lot of people swear by it. Yes, things can change in 6 months, but atleast the PennHip prelim will give you an idea.

If there is an abnormality of the femoral head, I dont' believe that will change.

HD is polygenetic, controlled by several factors meaning parents with 0's can still produce pups with HD. My girl Tia, her score is 5:6 (11), a male I used in 2005 had a score of 2:2 (4).. Only 2 pups from that litter have been xrayed, one was good with a score of 2:2, and the other one She doesn't show any clinical signs though, you'd think her hips were perfect by looking at her move!

[Scales of Justice]

With large breeds such as GSDs it is important to get the balance right. That is, a balance of exercise and feeding which allows the puppy to develop at a steady slow rate to ensure optimum outcomes for the adult skeleton. This means, not too much exercise, or not to little, but sensible exercise which does not put stress and strain on a growing body. It is important that a growing large breed does not indulge in exercise where injury can occur whilst the bones are green and the muscles are not fully developed. Walking is very good exercise for a growing pup within reasonable limits so I would only be walking your pup when she recovers (assuming that it is a soft tissue injury). Regarding hip x-rays nothing can be definitive at 6 months of age and I doubt that hip dysplasia could be diagnosed at that age with any certainty, but that is not to say that you will or won't have a problem. X-raying and positioning dogs for x-ray plates is a fine art and should be done by someone who has experience placing dogs for these x-rays, but a definitive analysis of the hips will not be able to take place until 12 months of age.

The other aspect of rearing a healthy puppy to adulthood is the feeding. I'm not sure what you feed her, but I imagine your breeder would have advised you to use a premium balanced large breed dry food and this is one area that I feel is very important to make sure that the diet is totally balanced. This Large Breed dry food is formulated so that large breeds do not grow too quickly, therefore minimising the risk to joints. If I were you and I was not already using one of these I would change your puppy's diet to a fully balanced food to make sure you get maximum benefits for the further development of your pups skeleton.

Edited January 11, 2008 by Scales of Justice

[alananddora]

Hi All,

I have spoken with our breeder and on her advise we will be taking Jasmine's xrays to Rob Zammit for a second opinion next week.

My breeder did say that not much should be read into a sixth month old dog's xray - I am hoping this is the case.

The PennHip sounds interesting and also looking at some of the radiographs of the case of severe DHD in the 6 month xray, Jasmine's are nothing like these - in my humble opinion.

Will wait for the second opinion and take it from there.

Thanks for the advise.

Alan.

[alananddora]

With large breeds such as GSDs it is important to get the balance right. That is, a balance of exercise and feeding which allows the puppy to develop at a steady slow rate to ensure optimum outcomes for the adult skeleton. This means, not too much exercise, or not to little, but sensible exercise which does not put stress and strain on a growing body. It is important that a growing large breed does not indulge in exercise where injury can occur whilst the bones are green and the muscles are not fully developed. Walking is very good exercise for a growing pup within reasonable limits so I would only be walking your pup when she recovers (assuming that it is a soft tissue injury). Regarding hip x-rays nothing can be definitive at 6 months of age and I doubt that hip dysplasia could be diagnosed at that age with any certainty, but that is not to say that you will or won't have a problem. X-raying and positioning dogs for x-ray plates is a fine art and should be done by someone who has experience placing dogs for these x-rays, but a definitive analysis of the hips will not be able to take place until 12 months of age.

The other aspect of rearing a healthy puppy to adulthood is the feeding. I'm not sure what you feed her, but judging by the breeding I imagine your breeder would have advised you to use a premium balanced large breed dry food and this is one area that I feel is very important to make sure that the diet is totally balanced. This Large Breed dry food is formulated so that large breeds do not grow too quickly, therefore minimising the risk to joints. If I were you and I was not already using one of these I would change your puppy's diet to a fully balanced food to make sure you get maximum benefits for the further development of your pups skeleton.

Thanks for the advise. Your reply came in when I was typing the above, but your first paragraph fits in with what our breeder told me on the phone this afternoon.

On your other question - Jasmine's diet is BARF. That is the Billingham BARF diet, which one of the benefits weare told is that this promotes slow growth and correct growth.

A&D.

[Pockets]

I can only reply as an owner, but not as a breeder/show person.

If my dogs hips looked like they were likely to have issues at 6 months, then I would do all I can to ensure that I helped correct that. Curtail exercise, move her/him to a low protein food (eg EP for large/giant breed dogs), fish oil and glucosamine supplements as well!

Good luck :p

Some breeders do not reccommend you give a large breed dog dry food for large/giant breed puppies as in some rare cases it can make them grow too fast and has the potential to cause problems :p

Plus GSD's are not a large breed dog, they are a medium sized dog

Edited January 11, 2008 by Ruby&Axel

[Scales of Justice]

On your other question - Jasmine's diet is BARF. That is the Billingham BARF diet, which one of the benefits weare told is that this promotes slow growth and correct growth.

The BARF diet may promote slow growth, but slow growth is not the only issue here. The important criteria is a correct balance of nutrients and with a BARF diet YOU are balancing the nutrients - how can you be sure that the correct ratio of calcium and phosporus and glucosamine/chondroitin is being administered along with all the other necessary nutrients in a growing pups diet? With large breed dog foods the research has already been done on the correct ratios of nutrients and for my money I would not want to make any mistakes which can be irreversible.

[Guest magnum]

Hi All,

I have spoken with our breeder and on her advise we will be taking Jasmine's xrays to Rob Zammit for a second opinion next week.

My breeder did say that not much should be read into a sixth month old dog's xray - I am hoping this is the case.

The PennHip sounds interesting and also looking at some of the radiographs of the case of severe DHD in the 6 month xray, Jasmine's are nothing like these - in my humble opinion.

Will wait for the second opinion and take it from there.

Thanks for the advise.

Alan.

That's great Alan as you are going to one of the best Dr Zammit, good that you contacted the breeder as she has had many years within the breed.

Good luck with your puppy, you are in very good hands :p

[alananddora]

Hi All,

Jasmine just got a clean bill of health on her rear knee - soft tissue is the verdict. No pain or movement in the joint. :p

Hopefully all will be well with Dr. Zammit as well

Thks...

[Poodle wrangler]

.....................

Plus GSD's are not a large breed dog, they are a medium sized dog :p

What do other GSD people think of this?

I thought over 25kg adult was considered "large breed" as far as joints and dry foods were concerned :p.

My standard poodle is tall as a smaller GSD and is certainly considered large breed- e.g. standard poodles can get large breed nasties like bloat, HD etc.

[EISHUND]

Hi All,

Jasmine just got a clean bill of health on her rear knee - soft tissue is the verdict. No pain or movement in the joint. :p

Hopefully all will be well with Dr. Zammit as well

Thks...

Thats great news about her knee.

:p to Dr. Zammit, he's the GSD man!!

What do other GSD people think of this?

I thought over 25kg adult was considered "large breed" as far as joints and dry foods were concerned .

My standard poodle is tall as a smaller GSD and is certainly considered large breed- e.g. standard poodles can get large breed nasties like bloat, HD etc.

I'm with R&A, a GSD is a medium sized breed.

[Scales of Justice]

What do other GSD people think of this?

I thought over 25kg adult was considered "large breed" as far as joints and dry foods were concerned .

My standard poodle is tall as a smaller GSD and is certainly considered large breed- e.g. standard poodles can get large breed nasties like bloat, HD etc.

I agree Poodle Wrangler.

Whilst female GSDs weigh usually from 25kg to 30kg, male GSDs can weigh up to 40 kgs and in some cases even more (usually from 32kg - 38 kg). That is a large breed in my estimation.

Edited January 11, 2008 by Scales of Justice

[Flaves]

I have to say that GSDs are meant to be a MEDIUM breed.

HOWEVER their weight is within the range for Large breed food.

Because the weight range is 25kg and over and a GSD should be

SIZE

Dogs: Height at withers 60-65 cm (23½ - 241/2 ins)

Weight 30-40 kg (66-88 lbs)

Bitches: Height at withers 55-61 cm (21½ - 231/2 ins)

Weight 22-32 kg (48-71 lbs).

So for a male i would probably feed large breed food.

And i did feed large breed food until Daire was having issues.

Once they are sorted i will be going back to Nutro or DVP.

Maybe try the Dick Van Pattens Natural organic. It is really good.

But up to you. I think what your breeder reccommends is what you should follow. They should know better

ETA Agree with PW and Scales about size and joints and injury

Edited January 11, 2008 by i haz flava!

[KOE]

A GSD is a medium size dog in relation to most things except FOOD then they are placed as Large breed.