Cesar Millan - Dog Whisperer

[Tonymc]

Winterpaws,you made an assumption that I was regurgitating Ccesar"s material.Making assumptions does not work and does not give the whole picture.

Amongst the Dog and Horse training fraternity much knowledge is common and not the sole property of one trainer.

I will bet it was my statement,that firstly we deal with an Animal,then Dog,then breed of Dog.Cesar would tell you himself that the concept was around long before him.I have been using the same perception applied to Horses that my grandfather used to drum into me years ago.The perception applies to all animals not just dogs. Tony

[haven]

Tess,instead of having a little Dig about me respecting him because as a Person he built his dream,tell you what get back to me when you have achieved something noteworthy like Cesar has. Tony

I've very much skimmed over this thread and haven't anything to add about the topic.

Just wanted to point out to Tonymc that he might like to consider that people actually do achieve stuff without him being all knowing about it

Saying something like this to someone like Tess32 is just laughable to anyone who has any idea what she has achieved and what she can do, which is probably everyone on DOL except you Tonymc

ETA: Going back, the comment didn't seem to me to be a dig at you at all, more a comment on the repercussions of the show. Looks like the only one with a shovel making things personal is YOU.

Edited January 10, 2008 by haven

[persephone]

My family taped an episode of it the other week for me (because I like dogs - hah!) and the 2nd case was of a SWF that was from the pound and labelled aggressive but the lady still took it home and then the dog was treated like a human baby and didn't tolerate being groomed ... among other things.

He used a lot of scruff grabbing, got bitten numerous times and the dog's face looked like absolute shite because they were using huge kitchen scissors.

I don't see what the issue would have been with muzzling the dog especially when the nervous and jittery owner was trying to trim it's fringe with these mammoth scissors and Ceaser was dripping blood everywhere....

I like watching the shows to see the mistakes the humans make so I can try and avoid them, because let's face it is ALWAYS handler error.

I watched this last night!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I felt sorry for the dog..although it was in a rage.... Cesar just kept on and on, and in the end the dog was almost exhausted, and did stand reasonably still..tho it was shaking /trembling and still very much aggro.

The dog was aggressive..its 'mum' knew that when she chose it from the pound. there was a notice on the gate!! This dog growled at everyone..could not be brushed, or patted at times...

It felt, to me, like watching someone 'break' a horse..by hopping on, and , even after the horse's firts rush of fear/anger is dissipated, then goads it to further effort, until it DOES submit..but because of being subjugated..not from any understanding of what is required.

I was not impressed.

[Guest Tess32]

Tess,instead of having a little Dig about me respecting him because as a Person he built his dream,tell you what get back to me when you have achieved something noteworthy like Cesar has. Tony

Come on Tony, that's totally irrelevant. Cesar's *personal* success has nothing to do with the general impact his training may have on DOGS of people who watch the show or read his book. Plenty of people achieve their dreams, it's a totally separate issue and has no impact on how good a trainer he is, how effective he is, how much 'good' he does for the dog owning community and so on.

I'm sure you can't honestly believe that his ability to become a good business man has anything to do with how his training is perceived, which is what this thread is about.

ETA - Thanks Haven and Winterpaws

Edited January 10, 2008 by Tess32

[Weimlover]

I love Cesar I find some of his training helpful

[Winterpaws]

I hardly think I made an assumption - I did double check when I first noticed

You said

I find the importance placed on Breed in this thread somewhat unwarranted.Why do I say that.When dealing with animals I find it preferrable to operate on these levels.Firstly it is an animal,secondly it is a Dog and thirdly the Breed.

Cesar says

pg 30 - Be the Pack Leader (also in his first book)

"When you interact with your dog - especially when you're trying to correct out of control behaviour - you must train your mind to relate to him in this order

1. Animal

2. Species; dog (Canis familaris)

3. Breed

4. Name"

So other than point 4 and you no including the latin you verbatim quote Caesar

I'd love to know your qualifications. I've got no issue with you personally but I am sick to my back teeth of people sprouting their expertise on some very dangerous issues when they appear to have read a few books and watched cable.

[Guest Tess32]

My family taped an episode of it the other week for me (because I like dogs - hah!) and the 2nd case was of a SWF that was from the pound and labelled aggressive but the lady still took it home and then the dog was treated like a human baby and didn't tolerate being groomed ... among other things.

He used a lot of scruff grabbing, got bitten numerous times and the dog's face looked like absolute shite because they were using huge kitchen scissors.

I don't see what the issue would have been with muzzling the dog especially when the nervous and jittery owner was trying to trim it's fringe with these mammoth scissors and Ceaser was dripping blood everywhere....

I like watching the shows to see the mistakes the humans make so I can try and avoid them, because let's face it is ALWAYS handler error.

I watched this last night!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I felt sorry for the dog..although it was in a rage.... Cesar just kept on and on, and in the end the dog was almost exhausted, and did stand reasonably still..tho it was shaking /trembling and still very much aggro.

The dog was aggressive..its 'mum' knew that when she chose it from the pound. there was a notice on the gate!! This dog growled at everyone..could not be brushed, or patted at times...

It felt, to me, like watching someone 'break' a horse..by hopping on, and , even after the horse's firts rush of fear/anger is dissipated, then goads it to further effort, until it DOES submit..but because of being subjugated..not from any understanding of what is required.

I was not impressed.

I just watched this episode just then. Cesar did nothing for that dog. He simply held it tight, got bitten and kept going until it was exhausted. As soon as he leaves 'mum' will go back to not being able to groom the dog because telling there were no solutions offered. I'd say he's probably right though in why the dog is acting like it is, but just telling someone to be confident won't make any difference. Heck, it was highly aggressive to Cesar and he IS confident.

The dog wasn't even 'broken' anyway - it had a good go at his hand. The dog should never have been allowed to be adopted from the pound by someone like her anyway, and if she thinks that dog is her 'dream dog' I feel very sorry for the dog, who will never get better.

That was one of the worst segments I've seen on his show....I'm surprised they bothered putting it on air.

[persephone]

I just watched this episode just then. Cesar did nothing for that dog. He simply held it tight, got bitten and kept going until it was exhausted. As soon as he leaves 'mum' will go back to not being able to groom the dog because telling there were no solutions offered. I'd say he's probably right though in why the dog is acting like it is, but just telling someone to be confident won't make any difference. Heck, it was highly aggressive to Cesar and he IS confident.

The dog wasn't even 'broken' anyway - it had a good go at his hand. The dog should never have been allowed to be adopted from the pound by someone like her anyway, and if she thinks that dog is her 'dream dog' I feel very sorry for the dog, who will never get better.

That was one of the worst segments I've seen on his show....I'm surprised they bothered putting it on air.

That has, unfortunately , left me wondering about the man.

From the bits I've seen, his theoretical knoweledge is good.. ( I have agreed with quite a bit of what he said)he can very accurately describe to owners what the dog may be feeling/doing, and he has such self control it's almost scary.

BUT After bullying that little aggro fluffy dog, and controlling it by simply being the one who could hang on longer and harder...

perhaps... ( and no, I haven't seen more than a couple of his programs..or read his book)

one of the reasons the 'pack' he's seen running with appears to me to consist of very happy "muscle/streetwise-dogs "

is that he is the best 'fighter' ?..and prefers to interact with these dogs?

(not meant as a derogatory thing..just that perhaps his forte IS to be much stronger and more persistent....) ?

I don't know....

just my 2 cents worth.

Whatever..he is very successful...is making heaps of money, and obviously enjoys the physicality of his challenges. Good for him, to have climbed the tree, so to speak.

Whether the dogs are happy or not, I don't know.

[Guest Tess32]

I think his pack works so well because he is a natural leader and as he grew up around packs he understands the dimensions of one and how to keep it running smoothly.

I wouldn't let him near my soft dogs, and I still believe his greatest shortcoming is that out of the 30 or so shows I've seen of his, he never ever told the owners that the dog needs to be TRAINED, it always needs to be dominated. In many cases it's true, but instead of only focusing no physical exercise, why not prescribe some training and mental exercises?

[jesomil]

I do not believe it looks at all like Tony is quoting Cesar as Cesars methods are nothing new.

Just because Cesar is on television doesnt mean that his methods are any different from how others have been treating their dogs for a long time. Animal, dog then breed is not at all new.

Cesar just puts it into words that are easy to explain so people take on his terminology. I know that i certainly have.

[MarkS]

I like his shows, and agree with many of his philosophies and application for behaviour management. What I do have issue with is people trying to copy him or even judge him after watching him modify a dogs behaviour in 15 mins. Many forget that many of his methods take hours to days to achieve, and we are only seeing a very edited version of his techniques. In many instances we are not seeing the full process or the stages he used to achieve the modification.

I saw one episode of a dog that had an overly compulsive attraction to rocks. In 15 mins (on his show) he had cured this dog of this obsessive compulsive behaviour. In the end you saw Cesaer throwing rocks near the dog, and the dog was displaying avoidance behaviour to the rocks. It appears that in this 15 mins, that having this dog running with his pack cured the problem. I am 100% certain he used avoidance training with this dog using an e-collar or similar. So we should never take his methods on face value.

I do respect this guy, and enjoy watching his shows.

[BrunoBella]

On a show a few weeks ago he used an ecollar to stop a acd jumping on moving tractor wheels. This also appeared to have been done in 20 minutes.

He does discuss training regime with his clients but not with his viewers so I presume you can buy them from his website.

BP

[Guest Tess32]

I have to disagree he shouldn't be judged on the show. As a trainer, would you really want 20 minute snippets of potentially dangerous information on the show? Obviously the producers edit the show as they see fit and to make Cesar always look good - but he has a CHOICE to do the show.

I'm sure he does do more with his clients than is shown, but nowhere in the show does it really point this out, to allow people to realise that copying him is not a great idea and that there is more to it. Because of the nature of his own marketing - ie a magical dog whisperer, the show WANTS it to appear easy and simple. The fact that he talks in an instructional way only further implies to people that his methods can be easily applied to their own dog.

There shouldn't be an issue with people trying to copy him - anyone with his intelligence would know that the average viewer MAY follow his techniques and he must keep this in mind. Pretty much all the clients he visits on the show are pretty clueless, so I'd guess he knows many of his viewers are too. The "don't do this at home" message was only introduced to the show after complaints.

He is not solely responsible for some person trying an alpha roll on their dog and getting bitten, but he IS responsible for the information and lack of information he gives out and the fact that every single show is the same - the dog is dominant, and a walk will cure it. If he can make sure that each show mentions how important a good walk is, why can't he mention that these aren't all easy fixes, that mentally exercising a dog with training techniques is a good idea, and that not everything a dog does is out of some desire to be dominant?

The show is presented in a way where the average person will try his methods on their dog. If he is concerned, as he should be, about people copying, he should be making sure that it is stressed to the viewer that this is not the whole method. It can appear on the show that he is more concerned about appearing as a dog whisperer than he is about relaying safe information.

[persephone]

I have to disagree he shouldn't be judged on the show. As a trainer, would you really want 20 minute snippets of potentially dangerous information on the show? Obviously the producers edit the show as they see fit and to make Cesar always look good - but he has a CHOICE to do the show.

I'm sure he does do more with his clients than is shown, but nowhere in the show does it really point this out, to allow people to realise that copying him is not a great idea and that there is more to it. Because of the nature of his own marketing - ie a magical dog whisperer, the show WANTS it to appear easy and simple. The fact that he talks in an instructional way only further implies to people that his methods can be easily applied to their own dog.

There shouldn't be an issue with people trying to copy him - anyone with his intelligence would know that the average viewer MAY follow his techniques and he must keep this in mind. Pretty much all the clients he visits on the show are pretty clueless, so I'd guess he knows many of his viewers are too. The "don't do this at home" message was only introduced to the show after complaints.

He is not solely responsible for some person trying an alpha roll on their dog and getting bitten, but he IS responsible for the information and lack of information he gives out and the fact that every single show is the same - the dog is dominant, and a walk will cure it. If he can make sure that each show mentions how important a good walk is, why can't he mention that these aren't all easy fixes, that mentally exercising a dog with training techniques is a good idea, and that not everything a dog does is out of some desire to be dominant?

The show is presented in a way where the average person will try his methods on their dog. If he is concerned, as he should be, about people copying, he should be making sure that it is stressed to the viewer that this is not the whole method. It can appear on the show that he is more concerned about appearing as a dog whisperer than he is about relaying safe information.

:p

Thankyou..I am glad someone can write what I thought, but couldn't find the words for.

[Alibi]

While i like the show, as tess32 said its really repetative. It does seem like the answer he has for anything is a walk, if it scared, dominate or whatever all he does is take it for a walk (well it seems like that anyway).

I like the book better, but i still pick and choose with what i take from it.

Edited January 11, 2008 by melt

[Kelpie-i]

It's blatantly obvious that Cesar has both his followers and his enemies.

the dog is dominant, and a walk will cure

This may be the way you've perceived his message, but the walk is actually used to create the "calm, submissive" state of mind that he talks about and assists the dog in becoming "one with the pack". It's not meant to cure the dog of the problem merely just one tool. If people bothered to walk and exercise their dogs more often, half of the behaviour problems we see these days would not exist. You cannot tell me this isn't so!!

If he can make sure that each show mentions how important a good walk is, why can't he mention that these aren't all easy fixes

Because maybe for him they are!!?? Most problems stem from lack of leadership. Once you've got that sorted, the rest should fall into place. Unless you are working with fear aggression or something more serious, other problems are a walk in the park for most good trainers and behaviourists.

and that not everything a dog does is out of some desire to be dominant?

No, but in many cases the owners have quite happily relinquished the leadership role to the dog/s, causing a confused, and in turn, problematic dog. Pretty much the same with kids I reckon!

The show is presented in a way where the average person will try his methods on their dog.

Yes it does and this is the part that worries me as we are not "Cesar Milan" with his handling skills.

On a show a few weeks ago he used an ecollar to stop a acd jumping on moving tractor wheels. This also appeared to have been done in 20 minutes.

Minus the e-collar, same was said for Victoria Stillwell and any other trainer, on previous threads, who's been brave enough (or fortunate enough) to score their own TV show. There are always the critics.

I do not believe it looks at all like Tony is quoting Cesar as Cesars methods are nothing new

It's human nature to quote others far more wiser, more famous and/or more experienced than us! Such is life!

Like him or hate him, his name is out there and most of the world knows of him. As for those who try his methods and end upt getting hurt, then they have ignored the warnings on the show and whatever happens is their fault entirely. I see the same warnings on those reality shows that depict motorcycle stunts and eating worms etc.

:p Just my 20c worth.

[Tonymc]

Terrific post Kelpie-I. So many miss points which you have covered so well!!!

As far as People trying out something he does,well thats the way it goes.He does give a warning and its time people had some backbone and took responsibility for their own actions.Somebody who trys something from a Show has made the choice to do so and must take responsibility. Tony

[BrunoBella]

On a show a few weeks ago he used an ecollar to stop a acd jumping on moving tractor wheels. This also appeared to have been done in 20 minutes.

Minus the e-collar, same was said for Victoria Stillwell and any other trainer, on previous threads, who's been brave enough (or fortunate enough) to score their own TV show. There are always the critics.

Like him or hate him, his name is out there and most of the world knows of him. As for those who try his methods and end upt getting hurt, then they have ignored the warnings on the show and whatever happens is their fault entirely. I see the same warnings on those reality shows that depict motorcycle stunts and eating worms etc.

:p Just my 20c worth.

Thanks Kelpie-i. That's worth at least 30c even though you quoted me out of context :p

BP

[Kelpie-i]

:p Inflation's a bugger. Now worth 40c.

[Guest Tess32]

So, you're fine with a dog being taken for a walk and expected to walk loose leash behind the owner without ever having been taught? THIS is how the show presents it, even though most of these dogs have had their pulling reinforced for months or years on end. Yes it's obvious what the walk is intended for, he repeats it very often, but the dog never appears to have a chance to LEARN this kind of walking. As he rightfully explains, it is usually the handler that is the problem anyway, so Cesar taking a dog on a walk and creating a dog with a calmer energy is not going to have much bearing when the owner is still clueless on how to do this. The dog is *already* calm when he hands the leash back to the Owner, it's a false sense of change.

All it does on the show is setup viewers to blame their dog for not suddenly understanding they must walk loose leash.

Yes it's obvious that more exercise is a good thing - I just don't feel that is the point.

As for the easy fixes, does it really matter if it's 'easy' for Cesar Milan? He is obviously a gifted handler, but 99% of people aren't so don't you agree it would be beneficial for DOGS for him to make a point of explaining that people can't realistically expect some sudden change in their dog?