Perfect Recall Training Using Ecollar

[BrunoBella]

Hi Meriment

What sort of a name is Norman - poor dog. I'm glad he's become velcro dog. My dogs do a drop stay in the bathroom while I'm getting ready for my walk or anytime it looks like a walk could happen any minute.

We had a day off today being sunday and all. Bruno took a while to learn the recall to the left cause I've always recalled him to the front or the R side. He finally got it on day 3. He has no problem with the sit and switching between the two. He's only done one SAAD while we were out walking and he sat immediately where he was . He's such a good boy.. He has since done recall and sit under 2 levels of distraction.

Bella breezed through an exercise a day and is on her third and fourth level of distraction for the first two exercises.

Both dogs are really enjoying this and I have found onlead walking better. I recall them instead of correcting with their martingales. They also spend their time looking at me trying to work out what other wonderful things they could do for me. I haven't done any proofing yet except in the backyard.

Can't wait for week 2.

BP

[BrunoBella]

Open letter to all readers / contributors of this topic

Could you guys please please please please please have a group hug :p and then you can all go and fight somewhere else.

I would really appreciate it. I find all this arguing counter productive.

Thank you ;)

BellasPerson

PS and that includes arguing about who was arguing and who wasn't.....

[MarkS]

Great to see you are having such fantastic results BellasPerson.

Yes e-collars when used correctly can speed up training tenfold!

Keep up the good work.

PS: No argument here

Edited January 13, 2008 by MarkS

[Meriment]

What sort of a name is Norman - poor dog. I'm glad he's become velcro dog. My dogs do a drop stay in the bathroom while I'm getting ready for my walk or anytime it looks like a walk could happen any minute.

As a pup he was always flat on his back with his fat stomach flopping out.... OH called him Fat Boy... then Fat Boy Slim - who's real name is Norman Cook.... and it just stuck!! Well... YOU DID ASK!!

It sounds like your two are going great guns!! I'm glad they're enjoying it... mine are too. They are happy with a set of rules to follow and they all know where they stand, so to speak. The place training is the best thing I ever did, especially with the 2 girls when I want them together.

They learn extremely fast and progress so quickly, it's fantastic

[BrunoBella]

Poor Norman..

I was meaning to ask which ecollar device you use so I can compare working levels.

The Innotek has 1-15 levels of stimulation and the Dogtra has 1-127 levels as is has much finer adjustments.

My two are on level 10 on the dogtra which would be 1 on the innotek. At that level they twitch their ears when they are asleep like they're shooing off a fly. I tried it on the inside of my arm and I can barely feel 25 (2.5) and can feel 35 (3.5).

I thought I would have to recharge the batteries every day as well but three days after the charge they are still showing no signs of going flat.

Just curious

BP

[MonElite]

I choose to educate on why I believe it's not a good training method for all dogs. I do not condem those that choose to use that method. If a method works for a person, I am happy for them. If it doesn't work for them or their dog, I hope with all my heart they seek out an alternative method.

Ditto!!!

Resort - 1. to have recourse for use, help, or accomplishing something, often as a final available option or resource

What is so evil about that word?

I also would like to know why people seem to think using an ecollar is a"resort"....?? it is a brilliant method of communication with a dog and it is much less confusing than many of the other methods people use before making the huge and horrible "resort" to the ecollar. I will be starting all my future dogs off with the ecollar from the word go.

whats evil about the ecollar or the word resort ? - Not much except I guess the costs associated with gettig the ecollar.

Todays training methods are leaning more and more towards positive than a negative.

E-collar is an avoidance/escape training method. So people would rather use motivational methods first, rather than starting their puppy on an ecollar. (we are talking here about pets arent we?)

I own an ecollar and so far I had very little opportunity of use it on my younger dog, yes I did use it and I will continue using it, however we all know that the best trainign methods are training in drive so why not go for that first, and if you do get the results you dont have to resort to using the ecollar.

With my older dog that had bad habbits formed ecollar was by far the best method to teach him to come back.

Well this is how I see it anyway.

[Griffo]

Hi Rachelle,

You have a right to your opinion, just like everyone else that uses this forum. What I am against is blatant personal attacks against someone that voices an opinion. You don't have to agree with her opinion, thats not my objection. My objection is personal attacks or condescending remarks against someone for voicing an opinion. That to me is very immature..

Helen has a right to say 'resort'. You and many others may not like that word, but at least she never attacked anyone.

Resort - 1. to have recourse for use, help, or accomplishing something, often as a final available option or resource

What is so evil about that word?

I am happy you see the use of the e-collar as such a wonderful tool, and I agree with you.

If someone posted on here it only took me 5 mins with a prong collar and didn't need to resort to an e-collar...nothing would be said.. I am sure. But because someone chooses to use clicker training, condescending remarks were made. I myself am not a fan of clicker training for obedience, but I don't put down someone for making that choice.

I choose to educate on why I believe it's not a good training method for all dogs. I do not condem those that choose to use that method. If a method works for a person, I am happy for them. If it doesn't work for them or their dog, I hope with all my heart they seek out an alternative method.

May I ask why you take Helen's remark as a personal attack on you, for using an e-collar? Hasn't she a right to her opinion..right or wrong in others eyes?

I dont think anyone had a problem with the fact that she's trained her dog with a clicker, i believe marker training is great and i use it with my dog (although i dont use a clicker)... i think it was the way in which the post was written. I dont believe the fact it took her "5 minutes" was a helpful or encouraging comment for anyone.

I didnt take Helen's comment as a personal attack one little bit, i dont think anyone has personally attacked her, just what she wrote. A personal attack goes further than focussing on what a person wrote and i dont believe that has happened in any shape or form in this thread.

What i did have a problem with is HER attacking one of the best trainers we will ever have on this forum and stating his conduct was unprofessional when it was not in the slightest. He merely wrote what a lot of us were thinking... well it verbalised the first thought i had when i read her post anyway.

I think anyone who posts that they "put a prong on their dog and their dog was perfect within 5 minutes"(fullstop, end of post) is an idiot. If that was coupled with some sound advice about the training needed in addition to the tool then that would make it a worthwhile post which could actually help other people. Otherwise it is just a "look at me, im so good" post which can have the unfortunate addition of putting the rest of us down who have tried and failed with that method.

I would still like to know why people think of the ecollar as a resort...the original user of this word has not answered that for me, of course it is their right to say that, i dont argue with that, i would just like them clarify what they wrote.

Edited January 14, 2008 by Rachelle

[Guest Tess32]

MarkS....just wondering why you don't like clicker training?

Sorry to derail thread for a second, I'm just curious! I won't reply, hehe.

BP - congrats with your progress btw

[haven]

Open letter to all readers / contributors of this topic

Could you guys please please please please please have a group hug and then you can all go and fight somewhere else.

I would really appreciate it. I find all this arguing counter productive.

Thank you

BellasPerson

PS and that includes arguing about who was arguing and who wasn't.....

Guys, try to respect the OPs request. Why don't you start a new thread if you want to continue arguing?

[BrunoBella]

Guys, try to respect the OPs request. Why don't you start a new thread if you want to continue arguing?

Go to the hairdresser and this is what happens . Thanks Haven

I think i might have to start another thread just so they can argue . I already asked nicely guys..

Edited January 14, 2008 by BellasPerson

[Meriment]

Poor Norman..

I was meaning to ask which ecollar device you use so I can compare working levels.

The Innotek has 1-15 levels of stimulation and the Dogtra has 1-127 levels as is has much finer adjustments.

Poor Norman nothing!! He's a dude!

I've got the Dogtra 200 Gold - a 2 dog and a 1 dog.

Both girls' working level is 20. Norman's is 16.

[MarkS]

MarkS....just wondering why you don't like clicker training?

Sorry to derail thread for a second, I'm just curious! I won't reply, hehe.

BP - congrats with your progress btw

Hi Tess.

It's not that I don't like clicker training. Its just that I don't agree with the "Totally Positive Reinforcement" philosophy that is taught in clicker training.

I also tend to agree, as Steve (K9 Force) pointed out earlier in this Thread, that he uses voice. I also don't see why you need to use a clicker as a marker..voice does just fine. But overall the philosophy of marking acceptable behaviour is not what I have issue with, its the socalled totally positive training philosophy. Yes it works on 'some' dogs for sure, but as an overall blanket training system, it has been proven (in my opinion) that it is not suitable, and we all need to be aware of that..

Now I think we should just get back on topic as BellasPerson has asked us too

If anybody wants to start a new post on the pros and cons of different training methods/systems.. I'll surely join in.

Cheers everyone

Mark

[Steve K9Pro]

BP: Both dogs are really enjoying this and I have found onlead walking better. I recall them instead of correcting with their martingales. They also spend their time looking at me trying to work out what other wonderful things they could do for me. I haven't done any proofing yet except in the backyard.

K9: having reater confidence & control over your dogs will also elevate your position in the pack & dogs will be happier being led rather than hunting (leash pulling)..

MM: They learn extremely fast and progress so quickly, it's fantastic

K9: This method I have given you keeps the dogs mind in a place of concentration, rather than going over the top or being demotivated. This means that most of the time you spend training will yield results... rather than some methods that mean the dog will become disinterested & you end up talking to yourself..

So thats the reason it is so fast.

BP: I thought I would have to recharge the batteries every day as well but three days after the charge they are still showing no signs of going flat.

K9: the low level of stim I have you using draws very little from the collar, so it will last quite a bit before requiring a charge. I personally hook mine to the charger as soon as the indicator drops one bar...

****************************

H: I made no comment about K9 Force excpect in response to a very unprofessional post

K9: I am a professional dog trainer not a professional DOL poster... I stand by what I posted though, it did very much seem like you were raining on the parade of others...

[BrunoBella]

Poor Norman nothing!! He's a dude!

I've got the Dogtra 200 Gold - a 2 dog and a 1 dog.

Both girls' working level is 20. Norman's is 16.

If Norman was a dude he would have a blue blanket not a pink one! Very cute piccy.

Your dogs must have thicker fur than mine cause mine are down lower.

No training today cause it raining

BP

[BrunoBella]

BP: Both dogs are really enjoying this and I have found onlead walking better. I recall them instead of correcting with their martingales. They also spend their time looking at me trying to work out what other wonderful things they could do for me. I haven't done any proofing yet except in the backyard.

K9: having reater confidence & control over your dogs will also elevate your position in the pack & dogs will be happier being led rather than hunting (leash pulling)..

MM: They learn extremely fast and progress so quickly, it's fantastic

K9: This method I have given you keeps the dogs mind in a place of concentration, rather than going over the top or being demotivated. This means that most of the time you spend training will yield results... rather than some methods that mean the dog will become disinterested & you end up talking to yourself..

So thats the reason it is so fast.

BP: I thought I would have to recharge the batteries every day as well but three days after the charge they are still showing no signs of going flat.

K9: the low level of stim I have you using draws very little from the collar, so it will last quite a bit before requiring a charge. I personally hook mine to the charger as soon as the indicator drops one bar...

****************************

H: I made no comment about K9 Force excpect in response to a very unprofessional post

K9: I am a professional dog trainer not a professional DOL poster... I stand by what I posted though, it did very much seem like you were raining on the parade of others...

Thanks for the info steve. I always wanted to be leader of the pack.

I have been charging my units every three days for something to do. Haven't managed to get below one bar yet

K9: I am a professional dog trainer not a professional DOL poster... I hope no one here is a professional DOL poster!

BellasPerson

[Meriment]

If Norman was a dude he would have a blue blanket not a pink one! Very cute piccy.

Your dogs must have thicker fur than mine cause mine are down lower.

No training today cause it raining

BP

Oh yeh, does have a bit of a pink tinge to it on the photo!! I PROMISE you it's just an old white doona - he's not gay!!!

It's not raining here... picture perfect weather. No excuse for me, need to get off the computer and get my A into G!

[BrunoBella]

MM I hope you didn't go A over T on your walkies .

[Working_Setters]

Nice to see an intelligent and semi-civil thread on e-collars on DOL. These threads are generally swamped with so much emotional BS and ignorance that they quickly become worthless.

Mark - GREAT POST. IMO clicker is great for some dogs and in some situations. High distraction recalls (eg chasing rabbits) with game driven dogs isn't one of the those situations in my experience.

I've trained with a clicker/total positive instructor that could not recall her GSD from running deer (deer are everywhere in that part of the USA), the instructor had been working with her dog and the clicker for 3 years without success, her refusal to use an e-collar meant the dog never dog any off-leash running. My poor, e-collar abused, birddogs on the other hand where romping through the woods off-leash on a daily basis.

BP Good on you for getting past the ignorant rubbish that abounds on the internet and trying e-collars for yourself. Going through a knowledgeable pro is the best approach. As you've discovered e-collars can be a great training tool for the real world, where your recall is challenged constantly. Having 100% recall will enable you to give the dogs so much more freedom and off-leash exercise - they'll love it.

A thought you might like to consider, I also train 100% sit. I use a whistle, which I think carries better than human voice. Everytime my dog hear that whistle they sit. Then I have the choice of either recalling, or going to the dogs. There have been times, such as when I've seen a snake near by for eg, that I want to pick the dogs up quickly, but don't want them to come back to me (toward the snake). So I sit them, then go to them and get the heck out of there!!

MarkS....just wondering why you don't like clicker training?

Sorry to derail thread for a second, I'm just curious! I won't reply, hehe.

BP - congrats with your progress btw

Hi Tess.

It's not that I don't like clicker training. Its just that I don't agree with the "Totally Positive Reinforcement" philosophy that is taught in clicker training.

I also tend to agree, as Steve (K9 Force) pointed out earlier in this Thread, that he uses voice. I also don't see why you need to use a clicker as a marker..voice does just fine. But overall the philosophy of marking acceptable behaviour is not what I have issue with, its the socalled totally positive training philosophy. Yes it works on 'some' dogs for sure, but as an overall blanket training system, it has been proven (in my opinion) that it is not suitable, and we all need to be aware of that.. :p

Now I think we should just get back on topic as BellasPerson has asked us too ;)

If anybody wants to start a new post on the pros and cons of different training methods/systems.. I'll surely join in.

Cheers everyone

Mark

[Guest Tess32]

I don't know - I think it's just as much of a fallacy to equate "clicker training" with "all positive" trainers as it is to say the opposite are compulsion based trainers who only use check chains and don't offer rewards.

I don't see them as the same thing - and most of the books I've read use punishment anyway, just usually not physical methods. I've realistically only seen a couple of trainers call themselves 'all positive'.

To me, clicker training just refers to marking the behaviour etc, and doesn't dictate if you use punishment or not.

The clicker trainers I've talked to have never 'taught' me to be all-positive.

ETA - I forgot to say that the reason I use a clicker over a voice marker is because I coordinate better that way. I click more accurately than I remember to say 'yes' and it also means I won't accidently mark something I dont' want by getting excited and using my vocal marker! I do use 'yes' when I can't have the clicker just in case though. Some people will be the opposite and click late, just depends on the handler.

Edited January 16, 2008 by Tess32

[Kavik]

I agree with Tess. The clicker is just one tool and does not say whether they use punishment. I find clickers great for teaching some behaviours and it is a lot of fun. But for other things something else is more appropriate.