Training As A Meal

[Leema]

I have often excluded meals when training as I use lots of treats. Right now, Clover (14 week old puppy) gets fed exclusively during training sessions.

I recently said this on another forum, and got told how cruel I was. They weren't very clear there, so I was wondering if anyone has any ideas why anyone would say this? Or do you believe the same and could shed some light? Or do you agree with me and want to call them names?

[sheree_e4]

At 14weeks your puppy should be fed a premium quaility puppy food at least 2-3 times daily,If you want to only feed while training use the dry food,up until at least 6mths,then go to 1-2 meals a day.

If you treat with pieces of chicken for example,still give her the dry food just less.

[Sabby]

i don't think it's cruel at all. The dog would still get the same amount to eat, it makes the training more fun and he's more likely to be motivated! Some would even say that the dog would see you as more of a leader as he is eating on your terms...not too sure about that one but maybe that's like NILIF philosophy, and i've seen lots of truth in that!

i'm not sure why someone would think that using the dogs daily meal as a training tool would be cruel! i once knew someone that thought trick training (with food as reinforcer) was cruel! My dog would just throw tricks at me so i found it very difficult to believe that i was being horrible to her!

oops! i just re-read your post (and sheree_44) and realised that if you are using her daily food as a treat/reinforcer/tool then thats ok but if you're using just the normal treats, then thats not a balanced diet for the puppy. Agreeing with Sheree_44, and had to edit!

Edited January 1, 2008 by Sabby

[Leema]

Yeah, she only gets her puppy kibble (Advance brand) in training sessions - nothing exotic.

[Belijae]

In my opinion and the opinion of quite a few trainers I have encountered there is nothing wrong with your dog getting all his/her food by working for it - in fact I have been encouraged to do the same for building my relationship, focus and training oppertunities with my own dog. You are supposed to alter your dogs 'meals' accordingly if they have received food for training, and if they have had their daily allowance in training rewards, then there is no reason for them to have a 'full meal' slapped down in a dish as well. There are people who fast their dogs for health and/or training reasons - would these people also call that cruel?

As long as your dog is getting the proper dietry requirements from the food they are receiving as rewards, where is the problem? (food bought as 'treats' are often quite high in salt and not neccessarily nutritionally balanced - so make sure your pup is getting real food to ensure he/she grows up healthy)

- EFS.

Edited January 1, 2008 by Belijae

[Leema]

It's nice to know that people here aren't as insane as the ones on this ... cough... other forum...

Thanks for your support.

[piper]

Ian Dunbar recommends getting rid of the food bowl and feeding by hand or through Kongs etc. So I see nothing wrong with the days calorie intake being fed through training. As long as the dog is still getting a quality, balanced diet which you indicate your pup is getting.

[JulesP]

You only have a little dog so you probably can feed all the needed food in a couple of training sessions. I might cut out one meal if I think puppy has had enough to eat. Have a 12 week border collie pup.

Just keep an eye on pups weight.

[Leema]

Yeah, I really don't like fatty dogs. I'm still making guesses on how much she needs, but she looks good at the moment and I'm prepared to cut back if she get sporky or add on if she looks skinny.

[petmezz]

good on you for training your dog, don't worry about the other forum, they probably don't know some types of servaces dogs are trained this way.

just make shour the dog is getting the right amount of food a day and all is good.

i only wish i could do this with my dogs.

[Keduf]

In my opinion and the opinion of quite a few trainers I have encountered there is nothing wrong with your dog getting all his/her food by working for it

I heard on one of those airport shows (Border Security perhaps?) that this is how the customs dogs get their meals

[Belijae]

Wouldn't surprise me. It'd be a good way to keep up enthusiasm for work (which they always look like they are having a ball) and you don't want a dog doing that job half ar*ed becasue he'd rather do something else.

[Belijae]

Yeah, I really don't like fatty dogs. I'm still making guesses on how much she needs, but she looks good at the moment and I'm prepared to cut back if she get sporky or add on if she looks skinny.

I hate the number of over weight dogs I see out and about - the poor things look and act old before their time.

Maintaining weight on growing puppies can be a bit of a juggling act as they go through growth spurts and plateaus. My family think my 8 month old dalmatian has a greyhound's profile - tiny waist and huge thighs. I swear he eats more than I do.

[MonElite]

I have never done this, but know few people that do this.

Its a bit hard when feeding BARF

[Henrietta]

Its a bit hard when feeding BARF

I can just imagine my little mite chompin on a chicken neck at the end of an exercise.... mmm 1/2 hour later, we may be ready for more training LOL.

I am rather strict with taking out what I train with as I don't want to be overfeeding, but mine still gets meals. If I could find a way to supply raw meaty bones as treats, I probably would.

I reckon my homemade barf patties chopped up would work though. Maybe.

ETA - sorry, I'm would say it is fine. Mine loves her food, but she loves it more when she works for it anyway!

Edited January 1, 2008 by Emm

[dogdude]

I feed this way to both my dog, and 12 week old puppy.

You really need to feed this way to train using proper food drive IMO. It makes no difference what, or how much you feed, as long as each dog is getting what it needs nutritionally.

I only work on one exercise per meal for the pup, or whatever new exercises for the older one. I don't chain any exercises together until I have built up focus to about 5 minutes .

[Leema]

Its a bit hard when feeding BARF

I know! I would rather feed real foods, but it's so hard to get right size bits and stuff that isn't gross... Training is taking over diet at the moment... But I try to assure myself that the kibble must be good with the price I'm paying.

[ness]

Hey you can use raw food as training rewards to. I have been known to use frozen chicken necks cut into pieces but also you can have things like sardines, even small bones in jackpot containers and put the dog up whilst they eat it. At home I will sometimes do an exercise and reward with a chicken carcass or whatever. The food can be used as a distraction for a more advanced dog. Like placed on the ground in front of them and then do a change of positions and reward with the food.

One of my friends tells me that she knows of somebody who will even put raw brains inside there pocket. Both she and I draw a line at this but you get over it. Raw chicken in a pocket is nothing (well ok I do place mine inside a zip lock bag and like I said its usually frozen).

ETA. I guess you could also place raw mince inside a jackpot container.

Edited January 2, 2008 by ness

[Keshwar]

When I was trying to sort out Faxon's recall I took a container of chicken necks along to a training session. Once he worked out that he got a chicken neck every time he did a perfect recall I was getting the best recalls ever. :D Also helped with heeling - heeling pattern if it was up to standard he got a chicken neck. Nothing like a raw chicken neck for a bit of an incentive.

At trials now I take along a container with a couple of chicken wings in it. If he does well he gets a chicken wing as soon as we come out of the ring. Same with the stays. I think this is working. :rolleyes:

Bear.

[Ptolomy]

You will find that most obedience people will use the dogs meal as training treats.

Don't just limit yourself to dried food as treats though - you will find that different treats will get different responses from the dogs too. Mine will work for carrots, fruit and veges - but bring out a cooked sausage or BBQ chicken and they do somersaults.

You may find it easiest to put the dogs food rations for a day in a bowl and then use this as the treats throughout the day - just so you aren't over or under feeding.

And as time goes on - you will get better at putting different things in your pocket - I often put my hand in my pocket and find raw chicken, polony, steak, chicken chunkers, heart, 4 legs....the list goes on and on.

Have to say I was the other person who did refuse to put brains in my pocket :rolleyes: