Pulling On The Leash!

[The Spotted Devil]

My lad likes to pee on the lamp post.....if he walks nicely on a loose lead and he gets what he wants

[ninaandted]

deelee2, I've been in and out of this thread to see how things are going and you've received some great advice.

I'm just posting now because your description of your dog and experience matches my nina to a "T". super smart dog at home and super obedient but she was a nightmare to walk.

after attending a DOL training day with K9 Force I ended up going back to work with him on Nina with great results. why I'm posting here is that what I discovered was that we had other issues underlying the walking on lead issues. it wasn't a simple case of just pulling, it had to do with behaviours and temperament. once those were addressed then the training on lead was straightforward and happened almost like magic.

I'm not a trainer and certainly didn't want to train her for obedience or competition - I just wanted to be able to go for a walk comfortably and I just couldn't. I genuinely tried all of the advice I received here on DOL and tried working with two different trainers over the course of 18 months. there was nothing wrong with the advice I received per se but without the assessment I still would have been struggling.

so what I'm trying to say in a round about way - if you are still struggling it would be worth seeing a behaviouralist/trainer and having your dog assessed. there may be other things you are doing or not doing that will make a difference. you don't have to have a dog with "huge" issues for it to be worthwhile having someone observe what you are doing not just from a training "technique" issue (although that can help too).

in our case although I was doing NILIF at home and TOT I still wasn't being enough of a leader and nina had other issues that contributed to a level of anxiety during her walks that caused her kind of pulling and behaviours. I was shown ways of addressing those that were appropriate to her. I also found it useful to apply to other aspects of her training as well and we have made alot of progress generally.

[MonElite]

I have got Ninas (or was it Teds) first loose lead walking experience on video!!!

[ninaandted]

it was ted's. he still walks like that now. he is a star!! doesn't quite adore me like he adored steve but it's still pretty special.

we had to go back for the one on one consult with Nina because of her history and anxieties, especially with male trainers but steve had that sorted in about two minutes.

[dlmckay]

Would Premack's Principle help at all?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premack's_principle

I read this in Leslie McDevitt's Control Unleashed for distracted dogs...

http://www.k9behaviorservices.com/philosophy.html extract below

The Premack Principle is another powerful training tool. This principle states that the opportunity to engage in a particularly enjoyable activity (say, your dog's evening walk at the park) can serve as a reinforcer (reward) to a less desirable or neutral activity (say, sit on command), and that pairing the enjoyable event with the other behavior actually increases the frequency of the less desirable or neutral behavior. In other words, by requiring that our dogs do something for us - sit, lie down, go to their bed, etc - before we do something for them that they really enjoy - take them for a walk, play ball or Frisbee, put their dinner bowl down - we actually make the "work" more enjoyable by association. And our dogs begin performing that behavior more easily and more often. This not only increases the dog's enjoyment of learning and working, as he associates obeying commands with activities he already enjoys, it helps develop a healthy relationship, it builds confidence as the dog realizes he has a measure of control over getting things he likes, and it gets him used to using that clever brain of his in a constructive fashion! And if that weren't enough, a nice by-product is that the dog learns impulse control in the process.

Edited January 7, 2008 by dlmckay

[kamuzz]

doesn't quite adore me like he adored steve but it's still pretty special.

we had to go back for the one on one consult with Nina because of her history and anxieties, especially with male trainers but steve had that sorted in about two minutes.

Its depressing, isn't it

- firstly how much they adore Steve

- secondly how well behaved they are for him "What do you mean this dog pulls?"

deelee2, would heartily recommend a session with Steve if you can get there.

[dee lee]

Ah, it always comes back to Steve...

Distance is a problem but it seems I should work that out, I can only handle so many recommendations!!

I did make a tentative appt last year with him for next week but could not commit- bugger!! Now that the silly season is almost over I can start to plan.

Had a bit of a revelation yesterday though- I may not be the alpha dog! My OH, whose maximum interaction with her is jogging once a week and who doesnt like dogs (she is no great exception!), seems to be!!! He told her off for barking at a dog walking past yesterday and she stopped immediately! Then sulked under the table til i made him call her and pat her! Far-out!! So not fair...

[ninaandted]

deelee2,

that would be one of the key things - you think you are being pack leader but you're not really.

you have no idea how much the pack power has been reinforced with me since I had a baby and went back to work and am routinely sleep deprived and slightly cranky! not too much but enough to be quite convincingly in charge and much less tolerant for any furrykids being bossy back!!

[Meriment]

Ah, it always comes back to Steve...

Distance is a problem but it seems I should work that out, I can only handle so many recommendations!!

I did make a tentative appt last year with him for next week but could not commit- bugger!! Now that the silly season is almost over I can start to plan.

I haven't read the rest of this thread but just wanted to say - MAKE THE APPOINTMENT WOULD YA?!?!!

I see your location is Sydney...? Try Perth!!!!! THEN you have a distance problem

HONESTLY, just do it - you will NOT regret it.

[dee lee]

:p

Oh merriment you make me laugh!

I know i am the ultimate procrastinator!!! Gettin on it!!

I cant really ignore the fact I NEED HELP (I wonder if steve does people therapy too?)

[Snoozie]

I'd just like to say... I KNOW WHERE YOU ARE COMING FROM

My lab is 2. He is a great dog, he sits, stays, comes, retrieves his squeaky bone and toys BUT he can not walk nicely on a leash AT ALL....

Nothing has worked, not check chain (he just chokes himself), not headcoller (he just pulls anyway and it cuts into his nose), not headcollar/normal collar with leash attached to both (still pulls) not food driven (too many distractions other interests so he doesn't care about the food). Oh if I stop he will stop and come back to me. He will even sit and wait until I give him the okay to start walking again. But the very minute we start walking again, he pulls like a friggin steam train. Honestly, some days I just can't deal with it. He only starts to walk nicely on the leash towards the end of the walk due to being a little puffed out :shakehead:

In most other ways he is wonderful but this actually gives me nightmares. I love my dog, but I DREAD taking him for walks and because of this he probably doesn't get walked enough.

I even joined obedience club and trained to try and work with him on this, made no difference. He is fine in a less distracting environment and even at training he is fine. Minute we are at home and going for a walk, forget it. Good behaviour out the window.

I actually want to begin show training with him and will be working with an instructor and hopefully she might be able to help me get to the bottom of this and implement a strategy that actually works with him!

Sorry, can't suggest anything but thought I'd let you know you aren't the only one

Edited January 12, 2008 by Snoozie

[BrunoBella]

Hey snoozie, it is difficult isn't it

Have you tried turning around and walking into him when he pulls? This seems to be very popular with everyone. Also, if this doesn't work make your dog sit and count to 30 and then try again. You will find it will take a week or two for the dog to stop pulling but this does work.

With collars, I had the same problem with a choke chain but did much better with the martingale collar (limited slip).

With a correction collar, you need to get your timing of corrections good. For example, dog pulls, you give a little jerk on the correction collar and immediately release, if the dog stops pulling, don't forget to praise them. This is the bit I was missing on my walks. I now walk two large dogs without any problems.

Other tips:

- keep the leash short and use a longer lead as a reward.

- stay calm and relaxed and make your body and arm relaxed.

Hope you get it sorted out

BP

[kamuzz]

I cant really ignore the fact I NEED HELP (I wonder if steve does people therapy too?)

Had my lesson today with Jatz - first time for her, third time for me.

And you might just have a point there - he is just too nice to tell you straight out that the reason your dog is misbehaving is because the owner is a .......

As he said to me today, it takes two to pull :D

Now do you have that phone number? :D

[dee lee]

Oh snoozie- i couldve written your post word for word!!! Crazy bloody dogs... Cant walk politely but hey can do tricks, i know what i'd rather.

I must say though that since i started this I have managed to stay a lot calmer whilst walking and have tried to be more consistent- its been easier with all your support and i mightve just had a good day today but she seems a little improved, so thanks guys! :D (and ok ok i'll get in touch with K9 as soon as im back at work in 2 weeks!)

[Snoozie]

Thanks for the tips BellasPerson. I have tried turning and walking back in the direction we came from then turning and going forward again making him follow (to reaffirm I am leading). I also tried making him sit/drop for a minute to reaffirm leadership.

I do agree though that maybe I am now also at fault and could be causing problems as I get so anxious and frustrated when walking him, which would of course make him much worse! I will try and keep calmer and more relaxed.

When you say "walking into to him", sorry I'm a little confused, if he is pulling out in front of me how do I do this? (not being antagonistic, I'm really interested to know as I'd like to give it a try and see if it works)

Will also try the check chain again and make sure I am giving the right correction at the right time. I haven't tried using it in ages due to the hopelessness of it previously.

If none of these work I may even try the Martingale too! God, I'd try anything to make life easier on both of us. He can't really enjoy it much either I would imagine.

Thanks so much for the advice :D

deelee2,

Worse part is I feel terrible when I pass someone with another dog on our walk and he gets that excited he nearly drags me along. Try explaining to that person that he is actually a really well behaved dog but just can't walk on a lead lmao. They look at me like I've got a few screws loose. Yet minute they pass us by he sits, stays, looks at me calmly waiting for me to give the okay to "walk"...go figure :D

I'm pleased to hear things are on the improve for you. I'm sure we'll get there too, but I know it's going to take alot longer for us as he's been in the habit of doing it for alot longer (he's been this way since he was about 6mths..before that he stuck pretty close to our sides due to being unsure of what could be lurking around the corners). I also know that alot of it is my fault for letting him get this way in the first place, but at least I am trying to work with my dog to fix it.

I personally give us both a pat on the back for admitting we have an issue we can't solve on our own and seeking ways to fix it. Well done to us :D

[BrunoBella]

When you say "walking into to him", sorry I'm a little confused, if he is pulling out in front of me how do I do this? (not being antagonistic, I'm really interested to know as I'd like to give it a try and see if it works), but at least I am trying to work with my dog to fix it.

Getting your dog to stop pulling on the lead is a very stressful job. I found I was stressing myself and Bella and it is hard to relax when everything is going wrong :D

Walking into him is the same as turning around except you gently push him out of the way with your body as you're walking. I have not actually used this myself but have seen lots of people say it works well.

Have fun :D

BP

[Meriment]

:p

Oh merriment you make me laugh!

I know i am the ultimate procrastinator!!! Gettin on it!!

I cant really ignore the fact I NEED HELP (I wonder if steve does people therapy too?)

;) :D

Well IMO a lesson with Steve, and getting the dogs sorted out, is basically "people therapy" anyway!! When you've been doing this :rofl: for so long, then someone comes along and does this .... well, yeh... just like therapy!!!

[MarkS]

For people having major problems walking their dog on lead. I find there are a few reasons for this

1. The owners are commencing the walk with the dog in an assertive state of mind. Walking your dog correctly starts before you even place the lead on your dog. You need to reinforce a calm state before even placing the lead on your dog. Once the lead is on the dog, you need to teach him/her to wait. If it means standing their for 10 mins until your dog relaxes and shows a calm submissive state, then thats what you must do. When you get to your gate/door to walk out to commence your walk, you need to make your dog 'wait' again until again he/she dislays correct state of mind and body language. Remember it's all about YOU being the assertive one, not your dog. 90% of dog owners that I have been to their homes for lead walking problems this is the main issue. The owners are in to much of a hurry to go for the walk, so what are they indicating to the dog?

2. Dogs that are dictating the walk are 'usually 'dictating in other areas of the home.

3. If all this fails - I recommend attentiveness training. We need to train the dog to be attentive towards the owner. We do this by taking the dog to a local park, where there are minimal distractions. We cut out street walking for a 3 to 4 weeks. We place the dog on a 2 to 3 mtre lead. Whilst in the park you make the dog sit beside you before stepping off. When you step off with your left foot, you immediately do an about turn to your right (if your dog is on your left), and walk in the opposite direction, giving your dog at least 2 mteres of lead. Your dog prediciting you will walk straight ahead will dart off in front of you. By turning you are not going where the dog wants to go. Once you turn, you walk at a brisk pace, whether the dog wants to follow or not. Eventually he will. Do not look at your dog, just keep walking. Eventually your dog will stop resisting, and most probably come up to you then walk ahead again. As soon as your dog goes to walk past you, you turn in the opposite direction again, without warning the dog. When you get to the end of the lead, keep the same pace going. Do not stop when you feel tension on the lead, this is very important, keep the pace going. You repeat this over and over until your dog eventually calms down and starts focusing on you. If your dog wants to go to the left, you quickly spin to the right and walk in the opposite direction. Always go in the opposite direction your dog wants to go. I promise you if you do this attentiveness training correctly your dog will very quickly learn to focus on you and walk with you, allowing you to lead. Most people fail because they rush back to street walking way to early. In the begining stages of this while your dog is resisting I do not speak to the dog or make eye contact with the dog. Walk in an assertive manner, we need to project leadership to the dog. In this early stage I do not use any praise. I am just telling my dog to follow me because I am the leader and for no other reason. We are not teaching the dog the heel exercise here, but to be attentive to the owner. Your dog, if you maintain this training correctly, will eventually be attentive towards you, and follow your every movement. I never expect a dog to walk at the heel when going for long walks. All I expect is the dog to be attentive towards me, and understands that I lead the walk.

Once you read in your dog he is being attentive to you, and is walking in a calm submissive state, then yes you can praise your dog for his current behaviour and state of mind. But also praise your dog calmly. Never praise if your dog is displaying assertive body language.

Most dogs can be trained on a flat collar, but remember to have it tight enough so as not to slip over the head. You can also use martingales and fur saver chain locked so as not to slip tight. I DO NOT recommend a halti (or similar collar) for this training!

The above is only a very short guide and is not a detailed guide to attentiveness training. But if you study the aim of this training you should be able to adapt it correctly. As you progress you also include distractions. When your dog is focused on a distraction, you always turn and walk in the oposite direction, and walk away from the distraction until your dog refocuses back on you and displays a calm state again, then you can turn and walk towards the distraction again, as soon as your dog shows interest in the distraction again spin around and walk in the opposite direction in an assertive manner.

Attentiveness training if done correctly works on ALL dogs. Just do not rush back into street walking until your dog is fully attentive to you. Then when returning to street walking make sure you follow the same routine as layed out in section 1 of this post.

Many owners wonder why their dog responds so well to the trainer, usually much better than for the owner. Remember your dog has no past with the trainer, so has no memories to bring up on what he can or can't do. So a trainer is able to very quickly condition a dog to behave for him/her. Many get frustrated when they see their dog working so well for the trainer, then plays up on the owner. This is normal. We need to replace past memories with newer fresh ones, on what you require from your dog. So getting the same results a trainer gets from your dog can take a little longer to achieve. But as long as you are consistent, and project the right attitude and body language to your dog you should see pretty fast results.

I am sorry I can't write a more detailed discription here. But if anyone wants more info just pm me.

Cheers

Mark

[Snoozie]

MarkS,

You are a wealth of information and I thank you for your post. Your comments about waiting until the dog is in a relaxed state before commencing the walk struck home, as did your description re attentiveness training.

I have PM'd you.

[jaybeece]

Walking into him is the same as turning around except you gently push him out of the way with your body as you're walking. I have not actually used this myself but have seen lots of people say it works well.

Ah yes, I've used this before to distract mine from approaching dogs when he'd normally be out front barking and choking himself to get at them. It's helped quite a lot to keep him focused and seems to keep him calm as I'm almost between him and the other dog.