Devices To Stop Pulling

[Gayle.]

As I already said, I don't live in or near Melbourne and have no plans (or no time) to go there aside from to collect a puppy.

I already said too, that I prefer to do things myself. I have got my dog to the point of not pulling now, I think we've done OK, but I was responding mostly to the OP's request for personal experiences with non-pulling devices and I was relating my experiences, which were all positive. The device I like the least is the head halter but it has it's uses and I do still use it on occasion. I respect that not everyone likes it, but has everyone actually used it or are you only going by anecdotal evidence?

The device I like the most is the Sporn harness because it works, it does not hurt the dog, it's very comfortable for the dog and my experiences with it are all positive.

I have not ever used a prong collar as they aren't available where I live and they are also illegal. I won't knowingly break the law. I would like to try one sometime, but not while they are illegal here.

Is there anywhere I can read about this miracle method of stopping a dog from pulling without using a non-pulling device as a starter? I'm quite happy to purchase books from overseas as there doesn't seem to be much readily available in Australia, then I can go at my own pace, without having to travel or to make contact with strangers.

[Erny]

As I already said, I don't live in or near Melbourne and have no plans (or no time) to go there aside from to collect a puppy.

I already said too, that I prefer to do things myself.

Oh, sorry. I know you've said that you don't want (or need?) a trainer to help you, but further on I thought you were asking me the "how to" ? Apologies if I've misunderstood the purpose of your post that asked that. :D

Happy training. ;)

ETA: GayleK - reflecting on this, I'm a bit puzzled with your view and am now wondering if you think that engaging a trainer means the trainer does the work for you? If that's what you're thinking, that's not the case. We explain, show and coach YOU. Same deal as you getting your info from books except that instead of buying books, you're buying the trainer's services. The latter is of course the most ideal for person AND dog, for the reasons that have already been discussed here.

If the above is not what you meant, then I'm not sure what the difference is between you learning from books or learning from a trainer (other than efficiency in training, which comes from the latter).

Edited December 29, 2007 by Erny

[MonElite]

how prong collars are different to haltis. You explained why you consider haltis so bad, but how is the prong collar different? In the end, it still causes the dog discomfort.

prong collar doesnt cause any irritation or discomfort unless its "engaged", where the halti does.

Is there anywhere I can read about this miracle method of stopping a dog from pulling without using a non-pulling device as a starter? I'm quite happy to purchase books from overseas as there doesn't seem to be much readily available in Australia, then I can go at my own pace, without having to travel or to make contact with strangers.

I think Koehler said something looooong time ago in his books (bearing in mind his traing methods were from the 60's or 70's), not sure but maybe Leerburg has a DVD on it as well.

And getting those would be about twice the price of a lesson with someone professional that can actually assess the dog.

Can you describe how did the instructors teach you in the club? I think you said you went to one.

also I just wanted to make a point - what we are talking about in here is walking with the dog not pulling on lead but not formaly heeling.

Walking on loose lead I mean the dog is allowed to go to the end of the lead, forward, sideways, back, sniff, pee look around etc, just no allowed to pull.

Heeling - staying right next to the owners knee, hopefully left knee and looking at the handler.

What were you talking about Gayle? heeling or walking on loose lead?

Edited December 29, 2007 by myszka

[Gayle.]

I did ask how to, but only because you kept referring to it, not because I really needed to know. I thought it might be interesting to know for future reference.

[MonElite]

I did ask how to, but only because you kept referring to it, not because I really needed to know. I thought it might be interesting to know for future reference.

When you will need it in the future you might consider paying for this than :D

Or get someone in the club to teach you properly.

[Gayle.]

What were you talking about Gayle? heeling or walking on loose lead?

Walking beside me on a loose lead. Not formal heeling (or that stupid looking waltz handlers do with their dogs where the dog never takes their eyes of the handlers face).

Can you describe how did the instructors teach you in the club? I think you said you went to one.

Mostly verbal praise, food rewards and all positive. They prefer a collar over a halti and a lot of them seem to really like the correction chain.

[MonElite]

Walking beside me on a loose lead. Not formal heeling (or that stupid looking waltz handlers do with their dogs where the dog never takes their eyes of the handlers face).

Horses for courses - I would love for my dog to do that waltz - have you treid training it, its not as simple as you might think.

anyway - what you describe is heeling, jsut that the dog isnt focused on you....

Mostly verbal praise, food rewards and all positive.

Yep - this is how most trainers train, so simple isnt it? Ok there is a slight correction every so often, did you give any? Perhaps you can describe if and what you did.

[Gayle.]

Ok there is a slight correction every so often, did you give any?

Yes, a quick jerk on the correction chain when he started to make the lead taut , the dog would pause, look back and I'd praise him for focussing on me, then move beside him, use the word "heel" and more praise for being beside me and walking on a loose lead.

By the time I got to the club and past the puppy class (where they really don't teach walking on a loose lead, mostly just sit and socialise the puppies) I had got him to the stage of not pulling much anyway and I just worked on tidying it up. We did hours and hours of walking up and down the driveway, turning quickly once he tightened the lead, turning erratically so he wouldn't know which way I was going, keeping him focussed on me and which way I was walking....so he HAD to stay beside me to keep up with me, all the time praising when he was beside me, praising for being on the loose leash.

I have no idea if this is the right way but I did see immediate results, just the long term ones took longer to get there. And walking to heel with distractions took a while because being a puppy, everything was more interesting than concentrating on being beside me. We got there though.

When you will need it in the future you might consider paying for this than

Sorry, I thought this was a a training forum where people willingly shared their knowledge and experiences. My mistake.

ETA, I use the word HEEL to describe walking beside me on a loose leash as it's quicker and easier to say to the dog than "Walk on a loose leash". He understands that HEEL means walk beside me. He also understand the word RETURN means wherever he is, he's to walk towards me, along my right side, around my back and sit at my left side in the HEEL position. Maybe I'm using the wrong terms but they are the ones easy for me to remember and easy for him to learn and differentiate beween.

And I use the word COME to call him to me as HERE sounds too much like HEEL.

Edited December 29, 2007 by GayleK

[poodlefan]

GayleK:

Sorry, I thought this was a a training forum where people willingly shared their knowledge and experiences. My mistake.

My knowledge and my experience has been gained largely by personal instruction Gayle. I was taught how to teach my dog and then how to teach others to teach their dogs. I attend seminars to extend that knowledge. The best advice I can ever give a handler seeking instruction is to get it in person from a decent trainer.

An experienced trainer can teach you more in an hour than you will learn here in days. I appreciate that you want to go it alone but frankly I find it frustrating to see people put more and more gear on their dogs when frankly a single one on one lesson can establish the basics of loose lead walking.

The internet can't teach you timing, it can't see what you are doing and it can't demonstrate technique. It sounds like you've had poor experiences with dog trainers. I'd encourage you to search further afield.

I think the training forum here is a wonderful place to share ideas, and great for people who don't have access to training. You may be different from me in your learning style. I learn best by doing - the written word doesn't translate so well into action for me.

Edited December 29, 2007 by poodlefan

[Gayle.]

It sounds like you've had poor experiences with dog trainers.

I don't have any experience with dog trainers. I've never been to one. I have no idea who or what constitutes a good one but I'd be quite happy to attend a seminar if there were any in my area (I can promise you there aren't), but on the whole my doggie and I are quite happy doing it by ourselves. I'll just buy a few more books and go to the obedience club and we'll figure the rest of it out ourselves.

[poodlefan]

It sounds like you've had poor experiences with dog trainers.

I don't have any experience with dog trainers. I've never been to one. I have no idea who or what constitutes a good one but I'd be quite happy to attend a seminar if there were any in my area (I can promise you there aren't), but on the whole my doggie and I are quite happy doing it by ourselves. I'll just buy a few more books and go to the obedience club and we'll figure the rest of it out ourselves.

Where are you Gayle? There is also a very good Obedience chat group on Yahoo but it is focussed primarily on training for obedience trialling.

I too attend an obedience club. I count club instructors in my definition of "dog trainers". You can get good and bad training from a volunteer or a professional.

I pay for private agility lessons in addition to club training and I'd pay for private obedience lessons if I could find a good trainer in my area. We are lucky to have some very talented trainers at our club but there's nothing quite like a lesson that focusses entirely on your needs rather than having to cater for a group.

Edited December 29, 2007 by poodlefan

[Crysti_Lei]

thanks guys. this was a lot of what i wanted to hear.

good advise from across the board.

thanks i might even print this thread and take it to the girls at work.

[ILFC]

Gayle K is your point that the OP was asking what equipment to refer to customers? Because having read through the thread- if this is your point then I agree. If you go into a pet shop to buy equipment- you aren't asking to be referred to a trainer.

[poodlefan]

Gayle K is your point that the OP was asking what equipment to refer to customers? Because having read through the thread- if this is your point then I agree. If you go into a pet shop to buy equipment- you aren't asking to be referred to a trainer.

I think if you go into a pet shop to buy equipment, a responsible staff member will refer to a trainer if that's a more appropriate solution than buying a quick fix device. People walk into pet shops wanting miracle cures. Staff with a dog's welfare in mind will refer to trainers if that's what is needed.

Case in point today. Owner of one year old "spoodle" (as yet not successfully toilet trained :D ) who wanted a citronella collar because her dog barks at people walking past the window. Dog has never attended training, chews everything and mouths the 4 year old. Does the dog need a collar or does the owner need education?

[Mystiqview]

Walking beside me on a loose lead. Not formal heeling (or that stupid looking waltz handlers do with their dogs where the dog never takes their eyes of the handlers face)

My dogs do that stupid looking waltz you refer too. I obedience train and trial. I love it, my dogs love it. The stupid waltz has the dog looking up at the handler, with a grin on their face and their tail wagging. I much prefer this to a dog who has their head down, walking beside you because it has to as it is attached to the other end of the lead. My dogs wrap naturally.

I have been trained to use a head halter, as well as a choke chain/martingale. I prefer my chain. Puppies learnt to walk beside me at 8 weeks through praise, flat collar and food. Generally wtihout a leash. I teach off lead 'heel' before onlead. Many trainers inadvertingly tug on the lead when they say heel.. If you do not have a lead in your hand, then you cannot do this.

I have a flat collar for when we are walking around the shops etc.. We can go for a pleasant walk in the park without pulling on a flat collar. My command for that is "with me". My dogs through TRAINING have learnt the difference between HEEL and WALK POLITELY. None of the "fun" you had mentioned earlier has been taken out of it. As soon as you cannot have fun with your pet, then you should get out of it.

Like what Erny has said.. Head halters and the rest are quick fixes. They do not correct the problem. If they are that great, then why does in most cases the dog starts pulling as soon as you take it off???? No one wants to spend the time or energy in training or learning from others.

It is good to do it yourself. It is also good to look outside of the square occassionally. You may not use another person's training techniques on THIS dog THIS Time.. But you may need to use that technique on the next dog. Or it may work for someone's else's dog.

Reading through your posts, and please correct me if I have read them wrong, but it comes across on one hand you want to know about other training methods, but then you do not want to look at other training methods and are closing your mind to the uses of other training tools. [Flame suit on]

I go to club, there are some good trainers and bad ones.. That is life.. like there are good drivers and bad drivers. I have gone to private establishments.. Some good and some very bad.. I have also gone to seminars.. One I had to drive 14 hours to get to.. But it is all stored away in the mental toolbox for later reference if needed.

EBay has some good second hand training books on there that are not necessarily expensive if you are chasing books. Koehler is old, but some of the ideas are still around today. Some of his methods are no longer considered the IN THING... but some of it also gives you a good understanding on the WHYS. Karen Prior's book on Positive training is also good. Not suitable for all things all the time, but again it is a good read.

But to the OP.. Do a google on some of the products you sell.. Maybe try Halti or Head Halter.. I think even Black Dog once upon a time had a page giving instructions on how to fit and use a head halter.. Likewise for a sporn, Martingale and Choke Chain. Haltis dont fit too well to dogs that have long or stout muzzles.. Black Dog or Gentle Leader is better there..

The problem with chains and slip collars... Very few people I have seen in clubs REALLY know how to use them, let alone teach someone how to use them properly and effectively, hence they are greatly misunderstood for being tools of severe punishment. A dog on a flat collar pulling is exactly the same as a dog on a choke chain pulling.. It is still choking.. The only difference is the chain is thinner than a collar and is biting in more..

I have seen prong collars for sale in a commercial pet shop up here in Brisbane.. It had the plastic capping on its end.. but they were not fastly fixed and could easy come off.

Each training tool has its place and is not cruel in itself.. Its the dumb person on the other end of the lead that causes cruelty through not knowing how to use it.

[Mystiqview]

poodlefan..

The dog owner needs a lump of 4x2 (newspaper) on the back of the head... Then training..

Ooops.. How stupid of me.. that requires thinking and work.. Lets just get a band-aid instead.

[poodlefan]

poodlefan..

The dog owner needs a lump of 4x2 (newspaper) on the back of the head... Then training..

Ooops.. How stupid of me.. that requires thinking and work.. Lets just get a band-aid instead.

It was kind of hard to resist the urge to grab them by the throat but you have to remember this isn't a mean or stupid person - just ignorant. It really worries me that such people can buy a dog knowing nothing and not getting the kind of support they'd have from a good breeder and a good dog trainer or club. :D

[Mystiqview]

Many new puppy owners do not know anything.. That is why my puppy pack is something like 30 pages long... Training everything from crate, toilet to lead and basic sit, drop, stand and stay. vaccination, worming, other health stuff a list of recommended reading.. you name it.. They even get a basic demo of training with one of the older dogs here before they leave.. so they know how to fit a head halter, choke chain etc..and how each is used.

I know you did not mean they were mean or anything.. just putting the old tongue and cheek in about the rolled up newspaper..don't hit the dog.. hit yourself for being forgetful.

[poodlefan]

Yep, I know you were joking Mystiqueview! :D

GayleK, back to your original question. One of the most effective training methods I've used and seen used to eliminate pulling on the lead is clicker training. Is that something you've read up on?

[Gayle.]

Reading through your posts, and please correct me if I have read them wrong, but it comes across on one hand you want to know about other training methods, but then you do not want to look at other training methods and are closing your mind to the uses of other training tools.

I'm happy to learn other training methods and I'm happy to use other training tools I'll not close my mind to anything but I won't knowingly break the law and use a prong collar. They might be fantastic, they ARE NOT LEGAL where I live.

I also won't go to a trainer, not now but I certainly won't close my mind to it in the future. If and when I need one I'll do some research and find one who I think will suit me and what I want to learn. At the moment I have taught myself what I need to know and am refining it day by day. But I prefer to do it myself, I'm not you, I'm not like you and probably the only thing we have in common is our reason for reading these forums and that's our love for our dogs.

The OP asked about what training devices people had used and their experiences with them, I responded. In doing so the topic got way off course as it often does on these forums. So be it, she found out what she needed to know, I hope she improves her sales rate.

I think if you go into a pet shop to buy equipment, a responsible staff member will refer to a trainer if that's a more appropriate solution than buying a quick fix device.

I think if you go into a pet shop and the sales person wants to keep her job, she'll sell you what you're asking for. A GOOD salesperson who cares about the welfare of the dog will ask the dog to be brought in to be correctly sized and fitted and will explain how to use the device safely. A good employer will have his staff trained by the manufacturers of the devices in how to fit and use them.

A pet supply store is there firstly to make a profit. Referring people away from the store does not make them a profit.