Devices To Stop Pulling

[Erny]

All good in theory, but they both work on the principle that at some stage, the dog will allow the leash to go slack for a few seconds, long enough to give the correction.

This is where "technique" comes into it GayleK. Easier to show than to explain - explanation often taken out of context or not believed by many until seen, in any case.

I have only popped in here because I was checking up on something else, so haven't given consideration that your question deserves.

One thing I will say though - "no pull" type harnesses tend to rely on a pinching type of effect under the sensitive, soft and unprotected area in the dog's arm pits. I do not believe the harnesses are designed to be utilised in the same fashion as a (eg) "Pressure Point Collar" (aka prong or pinch collar) either, but in any case, the area upon which the PPC rests and functions is not as thin skinned, IMO.

ETA: The Head Collar works on tightening (at the very least) and depending on the dog and its actions/responses, risks friction and the affects of friction to the skin. The Head Collar also works on the dog's neck muscle and skeleton - by altering its head position (potentially and considerably dangerous). Not so the PPC.

So in essence, GK .... you've made the three tools sound similar by your interpretation but when you think more about it, they are each different, affect different parts of the dog's body and need to be used differently.

Edited December 28, 2007 by Erny

[Poodle wrangler]

Just to add: A boxer attended our local obedience club and pulled like mad on a sporn harness .

[mel and chev]

thanks for the reply BP. I have tried the knot bones and they do last alot longer. Was just trying to get ideas of some different toys

thanks

[Gayle.]

"no pull" type harnesses tend to rely on a pinching type of effect under the sensitive, soft and unprotected area in the dog's arm pits.

The one I use has thick fleece sleeves over the "active" parts of the harness, and I've tested it by putting my hand between the harness and the dog while he's wearing it. It just tightens.........it doesn't appear to pinch at all (if it did I wouldn't use it), and it simply stops his front legs from extending. He also has a thick covering of long hair in that region (he's an Australian Shepherd) so there's really no chance that it irritates him. And in fact, I can leave it on him for hours while we're out and when I take it off you'd never know he'd been wearing it, whereas the head collar leaves a fairly visible mark on his muzzle which I can remove by running with my fingers.

I have been using it the last couple of nights, after not having used it for months......just because of this thread. And I must admit that I do really like it. It's comfortable for both me and the dog, he CAN pull in it although not hard and it's very easy to correct him without hurting him and it's VERY easy to give positive reinforcement. Walking him is pleasant, and we even tried some training while he was wearing it, and it allows me to give similar corrections that he understands, as a training collar although the tightening sensation is on a different part of his body.

When he is walking to heel, all the straps of the harness are loose, as if he was wearing no device unlike the head collar which he can obviously feel all the time, as it needs to be quite tight around his muzzle to be effective.

[Mystiqview]

GaleK,

If the harness you use does not have those fleece bits, then it could be conceivable that it could pinch in those places. Especially if the straps are not a stable width.

If you put fleece on head halter bits, then it would not leave marks on the fur either.

[Gayle.]

If the harness you use does not have those fleece bits, then it could be conceivable that it could pinch in those places.

Yes, but it does have the fleece bits, they are an integral part of the design. If a prong collar didn't have protective blunt caps on the prongs, it would do more than pinch the dog, it would pierce the skin. So they become an integral part of the design to allow it to be used safely.

[Rusky]

The sporn is a quick fix and with a sporn you can teach your dog not to pull. Sas the one you sent me is borrowed over and over again to help people. People like to do their own thing, people who ask in pet shops need to be given sensible advice. Crysti if it is a short snout flat faced dog like a boxer don't sell a halti or gentle leader, sell a sporn... If anyone has any trouble fitting them then pm me and I will put you in touch with someone who can help them to fit it... for free. Tell them they can't rely on it for ever, they need to do some work with the dog. I think that is what most people are saying.if they come to ask advice then that is a great step and I hate it when people go to buy stuff from the pet shop, spend a fortune when all they really needed was something simple.

It really is always better if possible to teach off lead walking by your side in the garden before going to see the great distractions...

[jaybeece]

I have a serious question that requires a serious answer, with no flaming, no sanctimonious posturing and no smart remarks. I am merely interested.

Three non-pulling aids.

1. Head halter. Dog pulls, halter tightens around muzzle, dog dislikes the sensation and stops pulling.

2. Sporn harness. Dog pulls, harness tightens around it's chest? muscles (the muscles on it's body where the front legs join). Dog dislikes sensation and can't stretch it's forelegs to stride out, dog stops pulling.

3. Prong collar. Dog pulls, prongs pinch skin around neck, dog dislikes sensation and dog stops pulling.

How are two of them NOT training aids and one is an accepted (although illegal in Victoria) training aid to stop a dog from pulling hard on a leash? And yet the cause and effect are all very similar.

I can't speak for the sporn harness as I've never tried one, but I can give my opinion on haltis vs chokers as I've used both a lot.

Haltis are really, truly fantastic for managing a strong dog when you need more or less perfect control. A bloke in my obedience class used one on his bouncy, out of control large dog very sucessfully, I've seen the improvement since he first fitted one and she's been like a different dog. It's really great to see. BUT he still trains with a choker, the halti goes on for walks and for when he needs to control her around other dogs. I think that's a really good balance and it's clearly been a godsend for him.

The trouble that I've had with them is that there's no real "Off" with them. They're always on the dog's face, always annoying. Sure they tighten more if the dog pulls, but even when they're being angelic the sensation of having something strapped to their face is still there. I think it creates way too many shades of grey as it's not simply "Off" and "On". My dog detests it even when it's loose and learnt very little when I tried to use it as a correction collar. I carry it with me whenever I walk him still, but am realistic about what this collar can accomplish.

As for the choker it's an entirely different sensation for the dog. For one it's around their neck which is not as invasive as the halti as it's nowhere near as sensitive as the face, I know I'd prefer something hanging around my neck to something strapped to my face. If the dog pulls it is intended to be tightened quickly and then released for a quick, clear correction. When loose it's no more annoying than a flat collar.

To me this sends quite a clear signal to the dog that pulling = correction, walking nicely = no correction. There's no grey fuzzy area when it's used correctly. The other advantage is that you can easily build up an association with a verbal correction as well (just as easily as building an association with a clicker & treat), the dog learns to listen to you. In most situations mine pays far more attention to my body language and voice than the choker so I consider it to have been a very valuable training tool, despite it's flaws. He used to be a horrendous puller on any collar, now he can walk nicely on a flat collar.

A prong collar operates in a similar way to a choker, but is more effective as it's easier to get a clear correction with one and, in my opinion, safer to use.

[MonElite]

If a prong collar didn't have protective blunt caps on the prongs, it would do more than pinch the dog, it would pierce the skin. So they become an integral part of the design to allow it to be used safely.

99.9% of prong collars dont come with rubber tips. I own few types and none of them has the rubber tips. And I have never manged to pierce the dogs skin, I have never managed to rub the fur off either.

[Gayle.]

Haltis are really, truly fantastic for managing a strong dog when you need more or less perfect control. A bloke in my obedience class used one on his bouncy, out of control large dog very sucessfully, I've seen the improvement since he first fitted one and she's been like a different dog. It's really great to see. BUT he still trains with a choker, the halti goes on for walks and for when he needs to control her around other dogs. I think that's a really good balance and it's clearly been a godsend for him.

I would agree entirely with this. Before I bought one I did loads of reseach and read the fors and againsts and in the end, decided if I used it sparingly, it might be worth the small investment. And I found it to be a godsend in particular circumstances, but not necessary to use all the time.

I agree the potential for injury is there, particularly with a dog that lunges suddenly. Mine doesn't, he just tends to pull harder and harder which makes the halter tighten more and he backs off because he doesn't like it.

It is a tool for control....it puts all the control in the owners hands, which is very necessary sometimes with some dogs, but it allows the dog to learn that to pull is not a good thing. Once that point is reached it's a small step to a training tool such as a correction collar and verbal cues.

[Erny]

but it [head-collar] allows the dog to learn that to pull is not a good thing. Once that point is reached it's a small step to a training tool such as a correction collar and verbal cues.

Why make training more difficult for the dog to learn by putting in that additional intermediatary step, when with the correct technique and appropriate training tool for the dog, the answer can become abundantly clear to the dog (humanely as well as relatively stress free) almost straight away?

[Gayle.]

Why make training more difficult for the dog to learn by putting in that additional intermediatary step, when with the correct technique and appropriate training tool for the dog, the answer can become abundantly clear to the dog (humanely as well as relatively stress free) almost straight away?

What is it? I keep hearing about it but no one has ever actually described it to me.

[Erny]

What is it? I keep hearing about it but no one has ever actually described it to me.

What? The "how to" ?

You're welcome to contact me to arrange a date/time and I'll give you a lesson on it. Much easier to do it this way. I get to see your dog, its responses - and can coach you there and then for the results you seek :D. Less time (hence more economical ;)) than trying to write it all out in 'book style' at the same time trying to cover all contingencies that MIGHT (or might not) occur.

Edited December 29, 2007 by Erny

[Tonymc]

Gayle nobody here is being sanctimonius at all.your reading things into the thread that are not there.

This is a training section so consequently you will get Trainers and people interested in training frequenting this section.People will correct or steer people onto the right track if information is not right,misleading,not applicable or confusing.

Everybody here wants a newbie to have the best applicable knowledge for them,their dog and want they want to.No matter what somebody wants to do with their dog,a common foundation has to be laid down properly.Once that foundation is inplace then later on the dog can be directed to his intended area,such as Herding,agility,retrieving or whatever.

The foundation requires the person to have a sound knowledge of Dog psychology.

Why are Prong Collars different to Halti"s and so on?

Historically Mankind have over a long long time evolved systems for directing animals,inorder to work with them.for example the use of collars on dogs,rings in bulls noses,peg in a camels nose,head collars on Horses and so on.

Each system that was implemented did so after the Animal"s species specific anatomy was taken into account.Mankind wanted a way of control and direction that was humane but effective.For example it would be ineffective,potentially dangerous and stupid to direct and walk your Dog around by tying a lead to his front leg.The dogs movement would be serverely hindered and the chance of breaking a leg high.

Head collars were devised for Horses as it suited the Anatomy of the Horse and gave humane but effective control.The Headcollar on a Horse only applies pressure when the human handler takes slack out of the lead.

Halti"s and similar units on dogs do not just apply pressure when the handler does.Due to a Dogs anatomy the Halti is a continual source of irritation.

Whoever came up with Halti"s I am sure derived the idea from a Headcollar on a horse.Pity they could not recognise

that the Anatomy of a horse and dog are totally different.

sadly today many are further and further out of touch with the psychology of a Dog and due to lack of knowledge resort to things like Haltis as quick fixes.The truth is though they are not even quick fixes but just a mask of discomfort.

Haltis are like a Person who has a wound on their left arm.The Person has a painful wound on their left Arm and rather then treat the wound they go and cut their right arm.The cut on their right arm certainly takes their mind off the wound on the left arm.But has it really done anything?all it has done is create discomfort which takes their mind off the original wound.

Give a dog enough discomfort or pain and it sure will take his mind off pulling on the leash!!!!!he is so focused on the annoyance that he is not thinking about pulling.But did any real training take place?Nope!!!!Not one little bit!!!! Tony

[Gayle.]

You're welcome to contact me to arrange a date/time and I'll give you a lesson on it.

I won't be doing that, thanks anyway. The only trip I have planned to Melbourne in the near future is to collect a puppy from the airport and I won't be taking Benson with me.

[Gayle.]

Tony, I like your reply but you didn't explain how prong collars are different to haltis. You explained why you consider haltis so bad, but how is the prong collar different? In the end, it still causes the dog discomfort.

[Erny]

You're welcome to contact me to arrange a date/time and I'll give you a lesson on it.

I won't be doing that, thanks anyway.

Ah well. It was an opportunity for you, 'tis all, seeing as you said you wanted to know. Offer stands should you wish to change your mind. Or, as it seems you might live elsewhere, if you let us know your location there are other good trainers who I'm sure we could recommend to you, should you want to increase your knowledge and skills to benefit the task you seek of your dog. :D

[jaybeece]

It is a tool for control....it puts all the control in the owners hands, which is very necessary sometimes with some dogs, but it allows the dog to learn that to pull is not a good thing. Once that point is reached it's a small step to a training tool such as a correction collar and verbal cues.

Well see I don't agree that the dog learns that pulling is not a good thing with a Halti. They learn that the Halti is annoying when they're walking and more annoying when they pull. I don't think that's sending a clear enough message for it to be a really effective training tool.

Of course some dogs will "get it" despite the vague and reasonably useless correction from a Halti, but I'd hazard a guess that the majority of dogs wouldn't. Dogs learn so much better when they have a clear "Yes" or clear "No", not this intermediate area where there's a possibility they can mistake the ongoing discomfort of a Halti as some form of correction. Annoyed or uncomfortable dogs also don't learn as well as happy ones.

In response to your question to Tony, IMO the difference is one discomfort is far more effective than the other and less drawn out.

[jaybeece]

Why make training more difficult for the dog to learn by putting in that additional intermediatary step, when with the correct technique and appropriate training tool for the dog, the answer can become abundantly clear to the dog (humanely as well as relatively stress free) almost straight away?

What is it? I keep hearing about it but no one has ever actually described it to me.

This is why people have suggested employing the services of a professional trainer. Sometimes it's hard to understand how dogs learn and having someone explain it and observe how things work is invaluable.

Not everyone is born with the innate ability to train a dog and some dogs can be quite a challenge. There's no shame at all in speaking to someone who can send you in the right direction, especially when a dog's well being is at stake.

[Tonymc]

Gayle,Erny is usually booked out for months in advance so it would be a great opportunity to take her up on her offer.Great chance to learn something.You admit above that your unfamiliar with how to teach a dog to walk without a Halti or so.

Money spent on education is always money well spent!!!! Tony