Acceptable Aversives/corrections

[SkySoaringMagpie]

In the "Trainers debate with the RSPCA" thread, there has been some some suggestion that people who promote positive only training use stereotyped and extreme examples of correction/aversives to illustrate their point. An extreme technique would be alpha rolling, hanging a dog off a choke chain or sitting on the dog.

So, for those who use corrections/aversives in their training, what do you consider to be ethical and/or effective options?

For example, I think a voice correction like "uh-uh" or "No!" is a perfectly ethical correction. I'm not persuaded that it's always an effective option, and I think no-reward markers are an under-used option, but it's obviously no reason to call the RSPCA.

What other examples are there?

[dogdude]

Hi Anita

I think the question you really want to know, is what do people regard as an unethical physical correction. A correction with a check chain is not a reason to call the R.S.P.C.A either.

I think any correction that doesn't do physical or mental damage to the dog is acceptable under the appropriate circumstances.

For the record, I train using food drive for trialling purposes and learning new exercises etc..........but if I am on a walk and if my dog decides he want's to pull on the lead, I would have no problem with an aversive correction as he knows that the behavior is unacceptable.

[Erny]

I think any correction that doesn't do physical or mental damage to the dog is acceptable under the appropriate circumstances.

I agree with dogdude. The correction also needs to be effective. If it's not and cannot be achieved without causing physical harm, then I think the training tool of use needs to be re-considered. (And this is where the argument/quest for lifting of the "prong-collar use" ban presently clouding Victoria is IMO very relevant.)

Note that I do not use physical correction in all cases, but I will use it where appropriate (to the dog's temperament AND behaviour) and necessary.

This is the other thing that many "positve trainers" tend to assert when 'debating' about or against any form of training that involves physical corrections ..... they purport that the whole or larger percentage of our training comprises of physical corrections. In fact though, this is not the case - an (do I need to insert here "well-timed and appropriately placed?) effective correction will alter the dog's behaviour sufficiently to allow a wider and more frequent window of opportunity to occur so that many more and frequent positives can be applied. Faster learning is then achieved and this in itself is less stressful to the dog.

Thanks for asking, Anita. :cool:

Edited December 26, 2007 by Erny

[MarkS]

Hi anita

What is ethical is different in many people. What is important is that whatever training method we use does not psychologically damage your dog, but enhances your relationship with your dog. I have seen more psychologically damaged dogs grow up due to no training and no setting of limits and bounderies, than dogs that have been trained by whatever method. Abusive training or abusive attitude towards a dog is due to people that either expect to much from their dog, or will not maintain consistency with their dog. A training method is not abusive, only its application can be abusive if used incorrectly. NEVER BLAME THE DOG!

So many people lose patience with their dog, blaming their dog for doing something wrong instead of looking at what they themselves must change in their relationship with their dog to modify the dogs behaviour. People resort to anger when a dog is not performing as the dogs owner expects. I have lost count of the people that don't understand that their dogs are not 'mind readers'. If we all commenced consistent rules with our young puppies as soon as we got them, and imprinted proper social behaviour at this crucial period in the dogs life, many of these 'harsh' methods would never be required. Teaching a puppy simple social skills at a young age can go a long way to avoiding contacting a trainer that must use aversive methods to now modify an assertive dogs unruley behaviour. Such simple things can make life so much easier for your young puppy and the owner if we just maintained consistency. How many times have I heard, "Oh he is just a puppy". Crap, he is a social pack animal that is currently at his peak in learning acceptable social skills. Young puppies are like sponges, and by starting this early we avoid having to use harsh methods later to now modify imprinted unwanted behaviour.

I for one believe in imprinting in young puppies how to submit naturally when trying to be assertive. To me this is one of the most imortant behaviours/skills we can teach a young puppy within a family. There are many ways of doing this, but whats important is that any assertive behaviour should be at a level the young puppy understands and can handle without overly stressing a puppy. One method I use is always claiming my space. I never allow any puppy/dog to claim 'my' space, even a young puppy. My puppy learns to approach me in a socially acceptable manner, and that is always seeing me as claiming the space. I teach my puppy at a young age to lay on his side and accept me holding him there in a relaxed manner. If my puppy is tense I do not let him up until he relaxes his body language, then I gently stroke him and reward him with calm pleasing voice inflection. When holding my puppy down I do not use any harsh sounds, I just stay very calm and relaxed. This way my puppy picks up on my energy, and relaxes too. I teach my puppy from the moment I get him that to be entitled to his food, he must first see it as mine. I train a puppy to accept this without using a lead. It doesn't matter how much food drive a puppy has, you can very easily teach a puppy without a lead to hold off going to his bowl, calming down and maintaining eye contact with you before given permission to move toward his bowl. Controlling the feeding is controlling resources, and immensely helps establish in your puppy where he fits in with you.

I NEVER allow my puppy to charge up to someone and demand attention. I believe you NEVER allow a young puppy to do what you wouldn't allow an adult do to do. So when I am with my puppy, he NEVER gets rewarded for running away from me, and demanding attention from another. My puppy only goes forward when I dictate, and only when my puppy is in the correct state of mind, and is displaying calm body language. I live by the philosophy that discipline ALWAYS comes before affection or as some say "nothing in life is for free". Always remember "Whenever your dog receives a positive, you are actually rewarding his current state of mind, not necessarilly the action" For example, If I have my dog sitting beside me, and even though sitting beside me, he is however displaying tense body language and an intense stare at the person or dog he wants to move forward to, if I realsease him at that moment I am not rewarding for sitting beside me and waiting, I am actually reinforcing his current state of mind. He learns if he stays assertive long enough I will give in to him with a reward. I make him stay there until he gives into it and relaxes, even if its just for a few moments, and makes eye contact with me. I watch his body language very carefully, when I see him relax, I reward with a free. I also make sure that whoever is around when my puppy comes over, I let them know when its ok to pay attention to the puppy. I again watch my puppies body language, and let the person know when it is ok to pet him. I also never allow others to correct my puppy, that is my job to set the rules. If my puppy is becoming overly assertive to someone, I remove my pup from the situation.

There are so many rules you can start teaching your puppy from day one, and believe me, your life will be so much better for it. Remember you have your puppy for many many years. Spending the first 3 months establishing rules and bounderies wil help ensure your dog remains with you for the rest of his lfe, and is a well conditioned pet and not a pest.

Now in regards how far is to far in training.... Any harsh correction is probably going to far..it usually means we haven't set the ground rules early in our puppies life. However I would then rather use the method required to set rules in an older dog, but always explaining to the owner that they have created the dog they have now, not the dog!

I also believe that if a method is going to take months to achieve a desired result, then in all reality we are not being fair on the dog or owner. Unwanted behaviour needs to be redirected quickly. I see so many that use methods that take weeks or months to modify the behaviour, eventually give in to their dogs behaviour, and the dog usually ends up at the pound. I see this a lot in aggression or for overly assertive behaviour. To many animal shelters react to quickly to overly assertive or aggressive dogs and put them in the "NO HOPE CLASS', and end up with an appointment to see God. I believe from experience at least 90+% of dog aggression and overly assertive behaviour can be modified.

[Lablover]

A punishment would be a fence jumping dog, being initially zapped by an electric fence.

A correction, for unwanted learnt behaviour depends on the dog.

We had friends over last night, after returning from Christmas lunch. My dog were hanging about as I fed and watered the humans. One friend said, you are always training your dogs. This comment set me back a little, until he went on to say, when I command I command once, and due to training, the dogs know only one command will be given. They know their off times by simply observing me.

I see too many people say no to their dogs, and if their dogs do not respond appropriately say no again, in a LOUDER voice. I frown, some screeeeeech. Some continue to no no no.

That being said, I cocked my head in thought, while on my first US trip. I stayed with a TOP retrieving kennel, where 100 dogs were been trained at $700 per month, on an average of 6 years. Big money!!! The dogs were well trained, as retrievers, but would they come when airing (toiletting), before being allowed to jump into each training truck.....no way, until the gates were opened.

Here in Australia, we tend to want to generalise EVERY command at every opportunity.

[PAX]

Mark thankyou for posting on DOL,

In theory I agree with most things you have written but it's the terminology that's used that throws 'us Positive trainers' off, I would rather say I am a motivational trainer as I do use negative punishment. I try to never use physical punishment because it makes me feel bad and I believe that my dogs never choose to do the wrong thing, sometimes there are just things that seem worth the trouble to them. Also they are only dogs, in the best sense of the word.

I have owned quite a few different breeds and I have found my dogs are respectful of me because I control the things that they want. If they are not sitting patiently, the trailer door doesn't open, if they dont give me a handtouch they don't go free to toilet, the dinner bowl never gets put down unless they sit, if they want to play tug they must hold that stay to get it, if they want to go out the gate they must sit calmly and wait to be collared.. etc etc. It's a lifestyle, I don't need physical corrections. This starts from the day any dog arrives at my house. If they dont do it, thats fine their choice, I walk away, so they learn to always want to do it. :D

I have never felt the need to teach my dogs to submit to me, I have never owned one that tried to dominate me and I think most dogs don't behave like that. (I have owned lots of breeds from Whippets to Dobermanns! :cool: )

My dogs also find other people of little value, I don't know if it's because they are happy and satisfied with what I provide but my dogs always want to be with me.

In regard to saying 'if a method takes months to teach', I believe it depends on what it is. Are we talking about general household manners or heelwork?

It also depends on our expectations of a behaviour, I dont want my dog walking beside me, I want 100% focus under any distraction, so this takes time and I believe in no corrections. I want my dogs to have such high value of heeling as it is so bloody boring to the dog in every other sense of the word. I also would never ask for this unless I was prepared to give my dog 100% attention and use the big rewards.

It can be quite difficult to interpret the written word sometimes and what we think a correction/ reward is.

My 0.02.

What sort of dogs do you own??? Sticky beak I know. :D

[bridgie_cat]

I am at a club that has almost 100% correction trainers. They use choke chains for obed. The do roll dogs on occasion (only some trainers - and never to students dogs) and do scruff dogs etc - but it is more about a dominant display than actually causing pain. There is nothing that they do that I think would cause anything more than a bit of discomfort (eg tugs on the choke chain etc) ... I did not switch to mostly positive because I didnt want to hurt my dog.

I switched because of the wonderful attitude it gives Lana to training! I got faster results and it was loads of fun for both of us. She now wants to be with me and loves her obedience work...

The only reason I do not want to go back to the corrections is because I do not want to loose any of this sparkle and I do not want her to associate obed with bad things.

The other trainers are getting results with their method and it certainly translates well to the ring - since they dont have to fade treats etc - so it is not that I cant see the other one working and I do not see any of these dogs being hurt - they are told off and they bounce right back into their work. (I do wish they could see a positive trained dog work well in the ring - Lana isnt there yet and they are quite sure that I am going to fall on my face with the methods im using... they dont believe a dog will work in the ring if trained positively) It is just that I enjoy the training and attitude that you get with positive so much more!

Bridget

[Erny]

The only reason I do not want to go back to the corrections is because I do not want to loose any of this sparkle and I do not want her to associate obed with bad things.

If the "sparkle" is lost then IMO the corrections applied are not being applied properly or appropriately AND/OR the rewards given are not sufficient to create the balance required.

The other trainers are getting results with their method and it certainly translates well to the ring - since they dont have to fade treats etc - so it is not that I cant see the other one working and I do not see any of these dogs being hurt - they are told off and they bounce right back into their work. (I do wish they could see a positive trained dog work well in the ring - Lana isnt there yet and they are quite sure that I am going to fall on my face with the methods im using... they dont believe a dog will work in the ring if trained positively) It is just that I enjoy the training and attitude that you get with positive so much more!

If your method is working for you and your dog, Bridget, then it must be the right method in your instance. I'll look forward to hearing of your "trial ring successes" .

[Mystiqview]

I agree with the others..

A well timed and appropriate pull on a correction chain, does not do lasting damage to a dog. If you went to rip off the dog's head, then I would be saying that is too far..

The positive trainers who are so against correction chains, use that example.. A person using excess force on a correction chain.

There is no such thing as 100% positive.. There are times where we do have to say "no" to our dogs, whether we use the word "no" or any other word.. If a dog goes to grab something off the table.. are you going to sit there and allow it??? OF course not! In some way we are going to stop the dog from doing that.. The dog wants the roast chicken from the table, you dont want the dog to have the roast chicken, and by not allowing the dog to take the roast chicken, we are effectively saying "no" (a negative) to the dog.

I have no issues of people who know what they are doing, using scruff rolls where appropriate. In 99% of cases of the average dog, they would not be appropriate or needed. I also have no issues of electronic correction collars, electric fences, and prong collars. In the case of prong collars, again I think you really need to know HOW to use them before trying it, and use it accordingly to the type and temperament of the dog and the behaviour you are trying to modify.

I train by praise, food, toys etc first. I also use a chain in my training. 99% of the time, I do not need to use it as a full correction chain. My voice is mostly what I need to correct the dog as I have sensitive dogs.. In most cases, a voice correction is all that is needed. A chain in my training program is to tell the dog that we are training. It is different from an every day collar that contain the council tags.

A dog who does not know the boundaries and is not trained even in basic manners is more detrimental IMO to a dog that is trained. Even if you may not agree with the training methods used by the handler. If the RSPCA training program is not teaching manners at least and the dog is unruly, then that is a cause to call the RSPCA. Not everyone in society can effectively do the PP training. Timing needs to be perfect, and it takes practice to get that timing down to perfection. The average John Smith, does not have or want to put in that time and energy.

[dogdude]

Hi Bridgy

I think most successful trialling people will tell you that drive is the most desirable trait to have.

Many people do not achieve it using aversive training for trialling, because it can compromise drive.

Behaviour modification is a different kettle of fish.

With all due respect to your club, .................... you were their standout performer at the last trial I attended!! Many of them have been around for years (some past mentors of my own).

I think you are headed down the right path!

Edited December 26, 2007 by dogdude

[bridgie_cat]

thanks dogdude

[Tonymc]

Dogdude,you said it very well. Tony