Tug Of War

[Lablover]

When do you suggest dropping rate of reward? Is the timing of such, difficult for a novice owner?

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: the answer is in the dogs drive, if the dog has loads of drive I almost immediatly reduce the captures, I want to as soon as possible begin an intermitant reward system which, for the dog, builds an acceptable failure rate into the training & keeps the dog motivated through several movements without needing a reward.

If the dog has low drive, more captures, this in itself allows the dog partake in the drive sequence, which is chemically rewarding to the dog, alowing the dog to experience the endorphins produced by the game helps buid drive.

With dogs like this it can be a sliding scale between adding enough frustration to buld drive vs allowing the dog to feed on the endorphins....

Edited January 4, 2008 by K9 Force

[Lablover]

With dogs like this it can be a sliding scale between adding enough frustration to buld drive vs allowing the dog to feed on the endorphins....

And the physical signs, shown by the dog. Saliva dripping from mouth, body quivering in anticipation, pupils!!!! Such excitement. Love it. The dogs focus on handlers......amazing!!!!!!!!!

Dogs asking what what what can I do.....pleaase please ask me.....to do anything and eventually for very very very long periods of time.

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: Here is Henry, & Mike, they are doing a Distance Learning Package on Training in drive with me & they are in Germany...

The prey item is the handful of SNOW... lol... You can see Henry is standing in a foot of snow, is locked on the prey item & in full self control here... Look at that focus!

Edited January 4, 2008 by K9 Force

[dogdude]

Hi K9

I have just received the Leerburg dvd on drive training, and I can see what you mean by "a lot of work"

(which doesn't bother me), but I am very dissapointed that my trialling dog has next to no prey drive.

He does however have a good level of food drive, which I have used to train him to a very good competitive level.

The thing I really want to access is his "night time drive level". His food drive is I reckon a good 30% stronger, and I want to carry this into a morning trial!!!!!!!!

I alternate feeding to both morning and night as part of the training. I do not feed outside training time.

It seems that no matter how hungry he is in the morning, the drive levels are polls appart when you compare them to the night time. Why do you think this is, and how do I carry it through?????????

My 15 week old pup is displaying a strong prey drive which I am very excited about, and I am building on it. I will also be attending your Melbourne workshop with Erny.

My dogs are Staffordshire BTs.

[Steve K9Pro]

DD: I have just received the Leerburg dvd on drive training, and I can see what you mean by "a lot of work"

(which doesn't bother me), but I am very dissapointed that my trialling dog has next to no prey drive.

K9: The Leerburg DVDs promote Bernhard Flinks method of TID. Bernhard is a world class trainer but, the level of dogs that suit his method are very hard to come by, so most dogs that you will see will fail.

The method that I have developed is still training in drive, there are hundreds of versions of this world wide, but it is more easily achieveable by moderately driven dogs with somewhat softer nerves & it is equally successful on high drive dogs with nerves of steel.

Watching how the out is trained on the video may give you an idea what I am talking about.

Having said that Bernhard has achieved results many only dream of.

He does however have a good level of food drive, which I have used to train him to a very good competitive level.

The thing I really want to access is his "night time drive level". His food drive is I reckon a good 30% stronger, and I want to carry this into a morning trial!!!!!!!!

I alternate feeding to both morning and night as part of the training. I do not feed outside training time.

It seems that no matter how hungry he is in the morning, the drive levels are polls appart when you compare them to the night time. Why do you think this is, and how do I carry it through?????????

K9: your leaving too many options (choices) for the dog. Cut out the feed that the dog thinks will replace the training food. Fast the dog once per week leaving only a good supply of fresh water on that day.

Begin a feeding regime that shows the dog that the meals it needs will come only from your hand, mouth or the way you use treats.

I believe that one drive isnt enough to control so I always utilise at least two for high level dogs. I would be developing pack drive with your dogs as they are SBT's, although a generalisation, this breed usually is very pack driven.

My 15 week old pup is displaying a strong prey drive which I am very excited about, and I am building on it. I will also be attending your Melbourne workshop with Erny.

K9: cool, you may get a benefit ot of at least Module 1 of my Training in drive Distance learning package which teaches you how to develop drive in a young pup that is driven. It helps you eliminate the pitfalls.

Edited January 4, 2008 by K9 Force

[dogdude]

Thanks for your reply K9

I look forward to the workshop.

[WinGus]

Thanks Reddii and The.Spotted.Devil for your suggestions on how to get Pepper to release. I'll try these out.

I'm sure Pepper has a strong prey drive, but not sure how to use it to my advantage. Will have to do some more research on this.

K9, I'm not sure I need to see you as I don't really think I'm having many problems at the moment (she has responded really well to TOT and NILIF), but I really should get my act together and join your email list so that I can attend any theory seminars you might be holding!

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: No worries, or my Distance Learning programs on Training in Drive are pretty comprehensive & are producing stunning results.

I am thinking of having an info nite on training in drive, just need to put something together..

[WinGus]

K9: No worries, or my Distance Learning programs on Training in Drive are pretty comprehensive & are producing stunning results.

I am thinking of having an info nite on training in drive, just need to put something together..

Cool! Will look out for it. Actually, will sign up to your email list right now!! ;)

[Dee_al]

i was always told that playing tug of war with a dog is fine so long as you always let the dog win. i dont know why though

[Arya]

You know, I'm thinking here that one of the keys to drive training is to teach the HANDLER how to use it properly (duh... state the obvious Arya, I'm sure you're all saying LOL) but this would help eliminate some of those dominance probs and single out those who are beating their head against brick wall and would be better with other method... and thus so FANTASTIC about the K9 and Erny workshops :rolleyes: . Hey Dogdude, are you going to FOO this coming season? If you are when you spot me bring Oscar over and we'll have a go with the hoses with him. Are you sure you just have not found the right reward to use to stimulate his prey drive? Are you sure you have worked long enough to condition him onto an object? That Leerburg DVD, I got one of those balls on a string (still in my bag LOL) and I can tell you, Tess prefers a manky old bit of hose over it EVERY time. I'll show you :D And she instantly switches back on after the out and I think that's my good luck, nothing to do with my abilities as a trainer, which although I'm getting better are totally abysmal as I have so much to learn.

K9: I am thrilled you say that in a way about the B Flinks DVD. My dog responded beautifully to his methods so I feel really really lucky that I was able by chance to get a show line GSD that has this strong prey drive. Could have got a flat one!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Arya]

Oh.... but when I say responded beautifully to Flinks' methods, that DIDN'T include kicking the dog when it was in drive or standing on its tail to prove a point that she is focussed and in drive!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That on the DVD didn't really seem necessary. We could see the dog was in drive. Did you see this Dogdude? I know they were tough dogs, specially the Czech ones but really...

[dogdude]

Hi Arya

Yes...........I intend to go to FOO in Feb, and I am madly teaching him Open work atm, as I wouldn't mind entering either the Warnambool double, Warringal, or Easter trial at KCC, as long as I think he is ready. At this stage we still have some work to do as I do not have a high jump set.

His D.O.R is coming along nicely, and so is C.O.P.

Arya, I have tried to build up prey drive using a tether and various toys, tugs, ball on a rope etc, but he won't even chase a ball unless I ask him to formally. Even the cat walks all over him!! He will moderately tug without any vigour, and thats about it. He will chase a ball without much intent if the pup is playing too.

His food drive however is almost off the dial at night time, and moderately good during the day.

The new pup is like the energiser bunny, and will chase, and tug all day long.

Of course, if you can find something that kicks in his prey drive Arya (must be in there somewhere), then I will gratefully use it!

While we were training the other night, there was an APB X RR that was totally ball obsessive, and had the most steely focus that I think I have seen. He zoomed around us as if we were invisible when the ball was out, and the girl played with him for a long time. To the girls credit, it was obvious that she had taught him self control, as he seemed so relaxed, but also so switched on.

Would love to do some work with a dog like that. Such a waste! (of a comp dog)

See ya at FOO!

P.S: What trials are you zoning in on? I take it Southern will be on the radar? Maybe Hastings?

[dogdude]

Oh yeah, to answer your other observation re- Flinks dvd..........................In his defence, he wanted the handler to push the dog slightly off balance with his foot, but the handler began actually kicking his dog. If you listen carefully, Flinks tells the handler to ease up.

It did appear a little o.t.t.

[Arya]

Hi again Dogdude, great will look forward to seeing you at FOO LP going too Maybe Oscar is just better with food... after all 199!!!!!!!!!!!!! Geez, must be doing something right LOL. But sure, we can give him a go with hoses and stuff. But sounds like that is just him. But let's try if you want to work him like that :p Even the cat walks all over him Cats smarter than they act... ask mine!!! She is our 'audience' during tricks training LOL. DD, I am zeroing in on EVERY trial I can get to starting with Hastings, then I think it's Southern, then I think it's Warringal. Then the park. I'll have to check. Have to mark up calendar to work out busy schedule with trials, training, each weekend. Only not go to far away like Warnambool this year as tracking will no doubt take me to Ballarat/haddon. This year I am going for broke. LP will tell you, my girl just went right thru UD today, the little so and so, except for long drop stay as we didn't do these. She is just getting her act into gear this year, that's all there is about it. More importantly, so am i!!!!!!!!!!!!! NO BS from anyone or anything this year is my new years resolution In saying this, my girl is really really enjoying her work at the moment. So Right thru march for trials though I do have a tracking qualification test in March I want to try to book into too but that's at KCC Park too. And the Sch BH too but Ob trials first. She is four this year. I want those 190s. I stupidly threw that 194 away at Southern at the end of last year (yeah, literally as me, stupid handler, threw the dumbell so far into the fence there!!!!!!)so not this year.

Hey, Easter Ob trials at the park look good. I heard a rumour there might even be camping there. If I haven't moved to Langwarrin before then I do hope that rumor is correct!!! FUN!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited January 6, 2008 by Arya

[dogdude]

Ha.........not quite a 199,.........geez..........i'd still be bragging about it otherwise. He did have good form though towards the end of last year though, couldn't be happier with him.

There is going to be some tough competition in Open and beyond this year if the likes of Prodigy, Sue T, and yourself make a good transformation into the higher levels this year, and of course L.P is well on her way already!! They are all really high scoring dogs. Really looking forward to competing against some of the really top triallers (you know the ones lol) and pick their brains on methods and the like.

I am not sure when exactly our first Open trial will be (as I said) but I would like to have the patience to wait for the cooler months. That is why Warnambool is on the radar (almost always cooler by 5-6 degrees than Melbourne.) Helps his drive. Warringal is just around the corner from me, so that sounds good, and Easter trial because he normally works well on that ground during FOO!

I still need to proof his out of site group stays when club starts back. Have done no work on that area since late November!

Anyway..........see you and LP at FOO.

[Arya]

Tough competition sounds good, doesn't it! The tougher the better. This will make us all work hard and raise our game and it can only be good for the standard at trialling. I really hope we all do well and have terrific performances and make it hard work for the judges to choose. I'm about perfection... wonder if I'll ever get there :D Looking back over the year last year yes, I was totally thrilled to get my girl over a hurdle and get her one pass in Novice but the pass was only 179 and do you know, the thing that I was proudest of was the 194 we blew at Southern. i was really proud of that effort by her in the heeling and that was our best moment in comps of the year, weirdly. Let's hope we all get many more up there this year

[Steve K9Pro]

A: K9: I am thrilled you say that in a way about the B Flinks DVD. My dog responded beautifully to his methods so I feel really really lucky that I was able by chance to get a show line GSD that has this strong prey drive. Could have got a flat one!!!!!!!!!!!!!

K9: I dont think you would have flanked your dog to vocalisation level or level 10- corrected your dog to teach the out though, am I right? This (part of the) method is the part I feel wont see many dogs make it through, those high level corrections extinguish all but the hardest dogs drives & from the outsode it appears the dog just doesnt have enough drive...

A: Oh.... but when I say responded beautifully to Flinks' methods, that DIDN'T include kicking the dog when it was in drive or standing on its tail to prove a point that she is focussed and in drive!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

K9: These are just ol tricks, for example, the tail goes just in front of the heel on your boot & the dog feels very little weight..

A: I know they were tough dogs, specially the Czech ones but really...

K9: It was probably his Police dog, one that will be kicked in its career & cant let go...

[MonSqueek]

On playing tug - I play tug with my dogs. Well more Luigi then Zoey, she prefers fetch.

Luigi will bring me a stuffed to to play tug with and I will ask him "GIVE" and he releases it. I can ask for him to give it at any point in the game and he will (sometimes, if he is really, really revved I might have to ask twice) and then I will ask him "SIT" and "WAIT" and when in wait mode he will sit there staring at the toy and I can bing it right infront of his face and make the toy pat him on the nose.

Then I will release him with "OK !!! You can have it!" and he will pounce on his half of the toy and I encourage him with "Tug! Tug! Tug!" while we play untill I ask him to "GIVE" again. Sometimes after Give will throw it for him to fetch which he loves too.

To teach him to "GIVE" I useto make the toy go dead and stare him down and in the begining I also useto put my finger across the front of his nostrils (remember Ive been doing this with him since he was 10 weeks old - I wouldnt recomend this with most dogs) and he would release the toy and then we had masive good boy parties and he got the toy right back again. I never ended a tug session by asking him to "give" and then taking the toy off him... I would end it by asking for a give, then throwing it away and then ignoring it when he brought it back.

I also proofed the "Give and Wait" game with bones and other treats.