Tug Of War

[sas]

I play tug of war with 2 Great Danes that are heavier than me and they don't win unless I want them to.

I make the toy dead in many cases, they'll drop the toy when they realise I have no interest in it.

I don't really see a prob with Tug of War, there are so many different theories on it, I think you really have to look at each dog as an individual and see what works and what doesn't.

[Kelpie-i]

I have to agree with Arya on this one.

Continously "winning" the toy (the human that is) is not a good thing for the dog's love and drive of the game. The dog needs to know it can win the game more often than not in order to keep up enthusiasm. I think the most important thing here is control the game by teaching the dog to "give" the item up on cue. His reward for giving it up is to immediately continue to the game. I find this a better and fairer way of controlling the game.

I let my dogs win the game quite often and it always has a boomerang effect.....they keep wanting more. To further control the game, I have taught 2 other commands: 1. "Gentle" which means they cannot tug at full force and must tug gently - great when young kids want to play and also saves my arm if I am getting tired or they are becoming over-stimulated.....they are extremely gentle on this cue. And 2: I also have an "off" swtich which indicates the end of the game, so they must now lgo away and leave me alone, even if they have the toy in their possession.

If I can also add, it's not so much the 'dominant' dog you must you must worry about if choosing to play tug, but rather the object possessive dog.

Happy tugging!!!

Edited December 25, 2007 by Kelpie-i

[Lablover]

Again, I am reminded of the line - ask two trainers and you may receive 2 different opinions. 3 trainers, 3 opinons. 4 trainers, 4 opinons etc etc etc.

I judge by my dogs responses and results (and our success at training which hopefully shows in trials).

Whatever the reward, (lure or bribe??-another topic one day perhaps??) as long as 100% focus and control are maintained - we and our dogs are winners.

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: I dont like to advise people with no need for drive to play tug with their dogs, it (if nothing else) develops the dogs jaw strength & that isnt a good thing for a pet.

For people who want to train for sport or work though, training in drive (which may include playing tug) is unmatched for getting results.

I also dont feel comfortable with the term "win they toy". This suggests that there is competition, & I believe that the true Alpha owns all the rewards, so no need to compete for them..

Knowing how to use the drive item is one of the most important steps in getting dependable, repeatable results whilst training in drive...

It alone will not cause aggression, but getting into a "competition" with the wrong dog can inflate the dogs rank drive, which may lead to aggression due to a conflict over the toy....

[SkySoaringMagpie]

I have to agree with Arya on this one.

Continously "winning" the toy (the human that is) is not a good thing for the dog's love and drive of the game. The dog needs to know it can win the game more often than not in order to keep up enthusiasm. I think the most important thing here is control the game by teaching the dog to "give" the item up on cue. His reward for giving it up is to immediately continue to the game. I find this a better and fairer way of controlling the game.

This is my view too.

With respect to the losing teeth issue, I think it's important to do a bit of tai chi style "push hands" when you're tugging (or leash training, or just about anything really).

That is, be aware of the force between the tug toy and the dog - with a lot of dogs you don't need to exert any real pressure yourself, just be solidly grounded and let the dog do the tugging. And if your dog isn't good at self-limiting (god knows I have one of those...), make sure you do the limiting for him or her.

[Arya]

I have to agree with Arya on this one.

Continously "winning" the toy (the human that is) is not a good thing for the dog's love and drive of the game. The dog needs to know it can win the game more often than not in order to keep up enthusiasm. I think the most important thing here is control the game by teaching the dog to "give" the item up on cue. His reward for giving it up is to immediately continue to the game. I find this a better and fairer way of controlling the game.

This is my view too.

With respect to the losing teeth issue, I think it's important to do a bit of tai chi style "push hands" when you're tugging (or leash training, or just about anything really).

That is, be aware of the force between the tug toy and the dog - with a lot of dogs you don't need to exert any real pressure yourself, just be solidly grounded and let the dog do the tugging. And if your dog isn't good at self-limiting (god knows I have one of those...), make sure you do the limiting for him or her.

Losing teeth? Ihadn't thought of that one! But I have GSD so good size and big teeth LOL. I actually swing my dog around in a circle by the hose, the way some swing their kids by the arms. Then pull with one hand and stroke head with other sometimes (being aware to keep pressure even on both sides of hose most of time to help the dog's neck). I will hold up high and invite the dog to jump high to my level to try to get the hose, or receive the hose for a reward, or to tease her to fire her drive up. The hose also seems to help clean my dog's teeth, weirdly.

K9, I see what you mean about all toys are the Alpha's and if i say put it in the bag she does, but I usually will exchange for piece of food unless she will happily give back to restart game. Trophy for trophy. She can be quite dominant but seems to get this within the confines of the game. I use pack position to help in training. So raise high as a reward - jump up, win tug, small incremental temporary increase in pack status for good behaviour. Right back down bottom if doesn't do the right thing LOL. But this is just my dog and it's taken a long time to find keys to getting inside her head to get the best out of her. Maybe others different?

[Red Mal]

I agree with Lab lover.

Wth breeds that can be predisposed to dominance issues (moreso northern breeds) it can lead to 'challenging' behaviour, as they always like an opportunity to win a challenge

IMO I wouldn't do it. I've never done it with mine, and I tell my puppy owners not to encourage it either. It's easy to win over a puppy, but not so easy to win over a large dog that is challenging !!

JMHO

[Kelpie-i]

I don't see anything wrong with teaching drive training to most people, infact we teach it to the puppies from a young age, albeit a more watered down version due to baby teeth etc. We teach control over the object which gives the added benefit of teaching a young pup to give the toy up on cue, lessening possessivness. Haven't had a problem with "dominance" or rank yet and we've been doing it for 4 years now. Playing tug, correctly, I feel teaches the dog that the toy is controlled by the human, not the dog.

K9: It alone will not cause aggression, but getting into a "competition" with the wrong dog can inflate the dogs rank drive, which may lead to aggression due to a conflict over the toy....

Isn't this similar to what I stated that those dogs which are possessive over toys should be kept away from tug.

[WinGus]

I have to agree with Arya on this one.

Continously "winning" the toy (the human that is) is not a good thing for the dog's love and drive of the game. The dog needs to know it can win the game more often than not in order to keep up enthusiasm. I think the most important thing here is control the game by teaching the dog to "give" the item up on cue. His reward for giving it up is to immediately continue to the game. I find this a better and fairer way of controlling the game.

I let my dogs win the game quite often and it always has a boomerang effect.....they keep wanting more. To further control the game, I have taught 2 other commands: 1. "Gentle" which means they cannot tug at full force and must tug gently - great when young kids want to play and also saves my arm if I am getting tired or they are becoming over-stimulated.....they are extremely gentle on this cue. And 2: I also have an "off" swtich which indicates the end of the game, so they must now lgo away and leave me alone, even if they have the toy in their possession.

If I can also add, it's not so much the 'dominant' dog you must you must worry about if choosing to play tug, but rather the object possessive dog.

Happy tugging!!!

How do you teach the dog to "give" up the item on cue? I try this and Pepper just keeps her hold, so desperate to "win". Is this what is known as drive? I'd also love to learn how to teach her "gentle" and "off"!! With the former, I get worried sometimes as she pulls with such strength for a tiny dog. With the latter, I normally just get up and walk away from the game.

[Reddii]

I have to agree with Arya on this one.

Continously "winning" the toy (the human that is) is not a good thing for the dog's love and drive of the game. The dog needs to know it can win the game more often than not in order to keep up enthusiasm. I think the most important thing here is control the game by teaching the dog to "give" the item up on cue. His reward for giving it up is to immediately continue to the game. I find this a better and fairer way of controlling the game.

I let my dogs win the game quite often and it always has a boomerang effect.....they keep wanting more. To further control the game, I have taught 2 other commands: 1. "Gentle" which means they cannot tug at full force and must tug gently - great when young kids want to play and also saves my arm if I am getting tired or they are becoming over-stimulated.....they are extremely gentle on this cue. And 2: I also have an "off" swtich which indicates the end of the game, so they must now lgo away and leave me alone, even if they have the toy in their possession.

If I can also add, it's not so much the 'dominant' dog you must you must worry about if choosing to play tug, but rather the object possessive dog.

Happy tugging!!!

How do you teach the dog to "give" up the item on cue? I try this and Pepper just keeps her hold, so desperate to "win". Is this what is known as drive? I'd also love to learn how to teach her "gentle" and "off"!! With the former, I get worried sometimes as she pulls with such strength for a tiny dog. With the latter, I normally just get up and walk away from the game.

I'm sure you'll get other answers from more experienced people than me, but the way I taught this was simply to stop 'tugging', but keep hold of the object and use a cue word - for one of my dogs it's 'mine' and the other dog it is 'enough'. They both need me to be involved in the game for it to be any fun so stopping the tugging motion stops the game. Once they let the tug toy go I'll begin the game again - this way they learn that when I say enough it is best to stop as it is the only way to get another game.

Hope that makes sense.

[Steve K9Pro]

K I: I don't see anything wrong with teaching drive training to most people, infact we teach it to the puppies from a young age, albeit a more watered down version due to baby teeth etc. We teach control over the object which gives the added benefit of teaching a young pup to give the toy up on cue, lessening possessivness.

K9: There isnt anything wrong with it as such, I sometimes think the amount of effort/energy input required by the handler sometimes puts those less dedicated to training, off.

There is a certian level of fitness, agility & co ordination required by the handler & not all people fit into this or even want to..

Thats been my experience. There are also alot of dogs without enough drive to make use of training in drive.

My most preferred method of training is training in drive, but I know that my wants & needs are not everyones so I dont recommend it to everyone. Some people want a simple solution rather than having to develop themselves & their dogs into something to try cure maybe a simple problem.

Its like I think remote training collars are the best tool one can own, I currently recommend them to maybe 5% of my clients, the other 95% dont fit into the categories that need them, they may have a problem that is easy to solve with other tools/methods, some people dont need the level of reliability that an e collar brings nor do they need the cost they attract..

Haven't had a problem with "dominance" or rank yet and we've been doing it for 4 years now. Playing tug, correctly, I feel teaches the dog that the toy is controlled by the human, not the dog.

K9: I find more people come to me with these problems possibly because they have played the wrong way... But I do agree that if the training is implemented the right way, rank issues arent common.

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: Having said that, there is no more effective training method on the planet than training a dog to achieve drive satisfaction through training..

It produces a faster response than any other style of training.

It produces a higher level of reliability than any other style of training.

It creates a "thinking on the fly" dog that defies natural preditory responses

It creates a perfect pack structure that rarely gets out of sync.

WITH THE RIGHT DOG & METHOD..

[The Spotted Devil]

How do you teach the dog to "give" up the item on cue? I try this and Pepper just keeps her hold, so desperate to "win". Is this what is known as drive? I'd also love to learn how to teach her "gentle" and "off"!! With the former, I get worried sometimes as she pulls with such strength for a tiny dog. With the latter, I normally just get up and walk away from the game.

This is purely my experience with my lad who is very, very pushy and OTT but not at all object/food possessive. Firstly, at the beginning of play I hold the tug toy very loosely and ask Zig to "give" - if he doesn't it slides straight out of my hand and is no fun for him! When he was learning, we would repeat this until he understood. Now I just say "Oh well" and ignore him for 20 seconds which works a treat. If he does give on command, he is immediately rewarded with an enthusiastic "good boy!" and a subsequent tug game (I actually say "tug! tug!") which I let him win OR I throw the toy because he also loves to fetch. If I happen to have a clicker on me, I sometimes reward an excellent toy release under pressure (e.g. when he is a bit hyped up and OTT) with a click/treat. He is coming along very well and is learning self-control and having fun at the same time

[Steve K9Pro]

K I: Isn't this similar to what I stated that those dogs which are possessive over toys should be kept away from tug.

K9: I dont think its the same, I think in the process of developing drive, a degree of possessiveness will occur in all dogs if you are doing it right. I think things can turn south quickly with a lot of dogs if you make errors in this stage...

Any dog can become possessive but possessiveness isnt neccessarily dominance, rank drive can be triggered by anything a rank driven dog thinks challenging.

I have trained heaps of dominant dogs in drive, without any problems as any time I wanted the toy, the dog wasnt in "conflict" with me..

I would happily train any dog in drive with a tug or thrown ball, if it had enough prey drive, I wouldnt be concerned about dominance at all.

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: When training the "out" there are 100 different ways that will work, in my experience, 60 of those ways will reduce/limit & or extinguish the dogs drive, 39 of those will create competition or "conflict" between the dog & handler.

The ways I use is the last out of 100 that builds even more drive & eliminates conflict...

[Lablover]

Wondering, how many dogs have enough drive?

I tested so many initially and even youngsters who had not been though any other training, were below par.

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: I see loads, maybe 40% of the dogs I see, but people do come to me for that type of training so I would expect thats well above average.

[Lablover]

K9: I see loads, maybe 40% of the dogs I see, but people do come to me for that type of training so I would expect thats well above average.

Wow, 40% of success. Are you referring to, eventual high level police dogs, customs dogs?

So many people have the wrong idea, in training using drive. Heck a good friend of mine, said that it caused his dog to be crazy in chasing kangaroos. Brother LOL.

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: dogs that meet the goals yes, any sport or working capability really.

[Tonymc]

quote from K9

I have trained heaps of dominant dogs in drive, without any problems as any time I wanted the toy, the dog wasnt in "conflict" with me..

I would happily train any dog in drive with a tug or thrown ball, if it had enough prey drive, I wouldnt be concerned about dominance at all.

Exactly Steve!!!! well said. Tony