A Trainers Debate With The Rspca

[Cosmolo]

I have seen Monty and Pat, read their books and watched dvd's- and there is lots of negative reinforcment involved. Just because something is not purely positive doesn't mean that it involves belting the living daylights out of the animal, hobbles etc. I don't understand why non positive trainers are all grouped together with alpha rolls and beatings. Its just not true.

Rusky- do you use headcollars???

[Cosmolo]

And i suggest you go to he Monty wenbsite and look at the very first photo of the horse in flight that comes up- you can't tell me that horse isn't experiencing stress and that its all "positive"

[Kavik]

From Monty Roberts website:

http://www.montyroberts.com/ju_about.html

Working in a round pen, one begins Join-Up® by making large movements and noise as a predator would and begins driving the horse to run away. She then gives the horse the option to flee or Join-Up®. Through body language, the trainer will ask, "Will you pay me the respect due to a herd leader and join and follow me?" The horse will respond with predictable herd behavior: by locking an ear on her, then by licking and chewing and dropping his head in a display of trust. The exchange concludes with the trainer adopting passive body language, turning her back on the horse and without eye contact, invites him to come close. Join-Up occurs when the animal willingly chooses to be with the human and walks toward her accepting her leadership and protection.

Sounds like negative reinforcement to me! Just because it is not physically violent does not mean that it is purely positive. There is obviously pressure and stress being placed on the horse. I am not saying this is bad. Using methods other than purely positive does not mean that you beat the animal!

[Tonymc]

One assumption I have seen the purely positive crowd make is that all Animals whether it be a Horse or Dog are as quite as their own.Some of these people due to limited exposure or experience assume,all dogs are like their own.Big mistake and a fairly narrow view of the bigger world.

We had a situation with a Bloke at home that had adopted a purely positive approach with Horses.This Fellow had come out to look at a Horse.Whilst he was there another fellow dropped some Horses off to be broken in.These Horses had been ran in off a Station and were 9 year olds and had been caught once as two year olds.These horses came flying off the truck and they were looking to go somewhere fast!!!They ran into a smaller yard and of course were milling around.

I said to this Fellow that had come to look at the Horse,that the three just dropped off would be a bit toey and not to go near them.I went off to catch the Horse that this fellow wanted to see.I was leading this Horse back,when I heard yelling and a commotion!!!!

I get back there and there is this Fool in the Yard with these three horses and he is flat on his back in the Dirt.He had skin off and was shaken up.

Turns out he had heard the silly belief that the Indians broke their Horses in by blowing in their nostrils.This Bloke has slipped through the rails,got in with these Horses and tried to corner one to blow into its nostrils!!!This big Horse struck him,then knocked him down and ran over him.

Lucky no bones were broken but a lot of skin missing and a bit shock!!!!!I was talking to this Guy later and he had to do some thinking about how things really were!!!He had assumed that this silly idea worked on all Horses and that all Horses were the same as the few he had been around.

It was a hard lesson for this guy,but he learnt Horses are not all the same and one method does not accommadate all horses and where their coming from!!!!

I have seen People do exatly the same with Dogs and end up wearing it also!!!!!! Tony

[Kelpie-i]

Thanks for answering my questions MarkS.......I was beginning to feel left out

Here are some of my comments:

The instructor told her off for using any negatives. Told her next time just pull your dog back gently and reward the dog with food when she is beside you. This lady after a few weeks was at her wits end, as the dog was getting worse and not better with these methods.

Could it be that in this situation the timing of the reward was the problem, rather than the general method itself? It seems the instructor may have given this lady incorrect instruction on reward timing and that the dog may have been reinforced for lunging. I totally agree that a well timed correction, in this case, was required but what if the lunging was due to fear aggression and not just a bad habit??

Applying physical corrections to a fear aggressive dog who has not been taught aternative behaviours can have disastrous effects.

I do use leash corrections but only if a dog knows 100%what it is supposed to be doing and only if the behaviour is not fear related. Lease corrections or P+ have no place in initial stages of behaviour modification for fear issues IMO.

I think in the past, many instructors/training organisations dished out corrections like they were going out of fashion, which is why a lot of problems occurred and the practice became unfavourable. Unfortunately, today we have turned full circle and have gone to the extreme of the other end of the spectrum, posing new problems.

There is nothing wrong with rewarding with food, or any positive. What maters is the dogs current state of mind when we give the positive.

Here are the magic words....."current state of the mind". Trainers...please take note!

Edited December 24, 2007 by Kelpie-i

[MarkS]

Can't agree with you more kelpie-i

Most definately if it was fear based, then a correction wouldn't have been used. This is a pup that just had not been set rules. Very confident, and a little controlling. When I stated a correction with this pup, I wasn't talking about being harsh, this pup settled very quickly due to my own body language, it sensed I was in control. One of the problems with the pups owner is that she projected a little insecurity, and this allowed the dog to control the situation. I worked more on the owners body language than on the dog.

Fear based aggression is a touchy subject at times, but one thing I don't agree with is trying to calm a dog that is in fear with any reward. I believe best philosphy is lead by example. When modifying fear based aggression you will always create a little stress modifying this behaviour, but I believe one of the biggest problems people have with fear based aggression, is that most don't allow their dog to deal with the stress, to many just keep taking their dog away from a situation that the dog fears while the dog is stressed..This is not teaching a dog to deal with its own stress, a dog will eventually give in to low levels of stress and deal with it..we just have to allow our dogs to go through this and not see it as cruel. When we see it as cruel, we tend give into our dogs behaviour, and then the dog can never directly deal with it. Please note, I am not talking about overly stressing a dog, I am talking about low levels of stress that the dog can deal with. Each situation is different and dealt with in a different way.

Its so important that we always walk away from a situation with the dog being a little more confident than when it came into the situation.

Not sure I am making myself perfectly clear here, as I am typing this very quickly due to heading out...Not a good attitude to have...especially in dog training

[Kelpie-i]

Not sure I am making myself perfectly clear here, as I am typing this very quickly due to heading out

No probs MarkS, you certainly make sense. And I do hope you are not rushing out at the last minute for Christmas shopping......I heard on one of the morning shows this morning that men will be the dominant gender at the stores today as they tend to leave things to the last minute....

[Rusky]

Could it be that in this situation the timing of the reward was the problem, rather than the general method itself

absolutely timing is a curse to teach. I know that the other guys have just as much trouble teaching timing as anyone else. Sometimes people get it immediately, others struggle and I have no idea why.When they do get it, they know....

I constantly try to come up with ideas for teaching correct timing to those who struggle, they need lots of positive reinforcement and encouragement ( I mean the handlers)

cosmolo why are you asking me if I use head collars? In bold print no less I have used head collars, I prefer not to. If someone comes along to class with one on I always remove it. I prefer a flat collar always, a good collar with a buckle preferably and a nice lead which is webbed or leather and long. I like long leads. I like treat bags full and fists full of high value treats and all this after a long long chat about their needs, their desires and their lifestyle. I need to know how much interaction they have with their dog, if it is an inside or outside dog. How much time they spend together, other animals in the home, other people, children, old people in the home. Heaps and heaps of stuff. Nothing is isolated is it? How you live with your dog, any breed specific requirements like muzzles in public, sighthounds, terriers, hunters, retrievers etc etc.

Erny I am a stayer BTW I hope you have a lovely Christmas and a happy new year.

[Erny]

BTW I hope you have a lovely Christmas and a happy new year.

And to you, Rusky ..... let's hope 2008 proves to be a great one. For us. For dogs. For everyone.

Sorry . A bit of Christmas sentimentality and spirit creeping in here :cool:.

Edited December 24, 2007 by Erny

[MarkS]

Kelpie-i

No probs MarkS, you certainly make sense. And I do hope you are not rushing out at the last minute for Christmas shopping......I heard on one of the morning shows this morning that men will be the dominant gender at the stores today as they tend to leave things to the last minute....

ME go to the shops today..are you out of your mind!!

Merry Christmas everyone!

Edited December 24, 2007 by MarkS

[haven]

Many dogs would find those options far more aversive than a physical correction.

did they tell you that?

Yes, actually. Don't you read and interpret canine body language in 'positive only' training?

How did they tell you that they prefer otherwise?

[Rusky]

Yes, actually

they told me different

[haven]

Yes, actually

they told me different

Every single dog in existance? Except my Nova of course, because if she told you that she would be pulling your leg

[Rusky]

Every single dog in existance

yes and Nova sent me a text :cool:

[Lablover]

Lablover,I have to strongly disagree with your idea that the inexperienced are better with the purely positive approach.I have seen those type of situations and it ended up with confused people,confused Dogs,no limits,no guidelines,no boundarys and no leadership.All in all a great recipe for a big wreck!!!! Tony

Not to worry Tony. I am probably blinkered by the fact by observing some damm harsh methods in the US.

AND as retrieving dogs, my dogs are constantly being rewarded.

I have no doubt many dogs have as you stated - no limits, no guidelines, no boundaries and no leadership.