Mrsdog Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 Each weekend I get a few problems to solve and this same old one comes up with great regularity: "My dog is weeing in the same spot inside". So I pretty well have this down pat, even for the people who are convinced to treat their dog like a child, and off I go into a few questions and answers BUT this one came up with a twist. As we got a little further along it appears that the dog is always peeing at the door. I know what immediately comes to your mind, just wait on...... Anyway, have only had the dog for 3 weeks, is a rehomed older dog and doesn't have any accidents during the day, only at night and then does it at the door. Hmmmm.... and they have a doggie door, which the dog uses....plot thickens......Ahaa, they lock the doggie door at night! Small dog, small door, have to be a small burglar. Oh yes, they do take doggie out before bedtime but she won't go then. Gave them strategies to try to encourage toileting before bedtime, remembering that she is still settling in and not sure yet what is expected of her (thus my question "do we expect too much") and gave them a choice of either getting up in the middle of night and letting her out or leaving the doggie door open for a few nights. Once she is settled she probably won't have to go wee till morning. I also pointed out that they were very lucky to have such a good older dog, already reasonably trained - sits, walks on lead without pulling, etc. and I'm sure this little problem will sort itself out very quickly. BTW lady just adores this dog already, is taking it to OB classes and like all good stories they are going to live happily ever after. Noels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 I wonder if it is always that we expect too much or if it is that we don't always realise what is cueing a particular behaviour? Esp when talking about people who do seriously love their dogs? I had a realisation this morning about a training issue I'm having with my own dog...nothing serious, more like a sticking point. I've started teaching my girl to go out and sit in the box. I've broken the training down into small pieces and started simply. She had paired being in the box with sitting and being rewarded and was doing this part consistently. So I started increasing the distance a step at a time...it was all going well and she was enthusiastic and consistent. When I got a certain distance from her and sent her to the box, she started dropping in the box instead of sitting...if I moved closer she'd sit so I'd do that for a few reps and then take one step back, ask her for the same thing and she'd run to the box and drop.... This morning I realised that it was the distance that was cueing the drop behaviour because of also training the change of position......funny thing is, when she realised I wasn't rewarding for the drop in the box she'd kind of run out and stand there and look at me expectantly....I was giving her a bit of time to see if she worked it out for herself....the first thing she tried then was retrieving the box! LOL So, she was trying on the behaviours that she'd been rewarded for in the past at a distance....to her, distance was a strong cue for a behaviour. There was a good lesson in this realisation for me because we may not always realise exactly what clues the dog is reading in order to try to do what we want and there are areas in some exercises where there are parallels in criteria.....I wonder how often I have caused confusion for my dog in the past and where my training actions for one exercise has caused her confusion with another? So...getting back on topic, maybe the dogs previous owners were more night owlish or earlier risers than her new owners? Maybe its not that she has just associated toileting with being outside, but time is strong cue? Or maybe there is another cue that we haven't realised or cannot percieve? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 Do we expect too much from our human pupils? Definately! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squeak Posted December 23, 2007 Share Posted December 23, 2007 Can I join in on this thread and ask for some training advice??? We have recently (two weeks ago) adopted our second dog, Murphy, who we think is a golden retriever x collie x everything else!!! He has settled in well, apart from a couple of small issues, which I would like to resolve, but ask myself if I am expecting too much too soon. We haven't done much training with him, except getting him to walk on a loose lead and the start of a sit. We have pretty much have just been letting him settle in. He is very licky and very mouthy. Whilst I understand some people like licky dogs, it is something which I cannot stand. Any suggestions for dealing with this one? And, as I said, he is very mouthy. He will jump up on you (which is ignored) but then will mouth you - he usually latches onto my elbow, which can be painful - he is not biting as such, it is just where he grabs. This isn't too bad when he is by himself, but if he is out in the yard with our other dog, Stormy, it gets worse. Particularly if you try to pat Stormy and not him. I know that I am probably missing something really obvious, so fire away. His "sit" is not reliable enough (yet) to use as part of the solution. And, any advice on getting him to let us pat Stormy and not him if we choose, or vice versa? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrunoBella Posted December 24, 2007 Share Posted December 24, 2007 How old is murphy? The jumping and latching is him trying to tell you he's boss. Bella used to tell me this as well and it took a lot of brainpower to figure out how to stop this. Sounds to me Murphy is trying to assert his position in the pack above you! I would initially try to block the jumping and stop him from getting to your elbow! I have recently started using a technique someone else suggested of grabbing the dog by the collar and growling at them loudly. This is working really well for Bella (Bruno is much easier to correct). As he is trying to assert his position in the pack I would be inclined to remove him from the pack in a crate or similar object. I would ignore the dog for at least half an hour after a mouthhing offence. You need to work on your pack leadership - see triangle of temptation and the NILIF - nothing in life is free program. I would set up a list of rules for behaviours you don't like and the punishments for these. This will help with your leadrship. As an example, mouthing gets 30 minutes in the sin bin. Jumping gets blocked or growled at. Another usefull punishment is to walk inside and slam the door (learned that one from a book). I carry out all punishments in a calm state, eg, calmly grab offender by collar, put them in the crate, close the door and keep quiet. I occassionally have problems with Bella laying her paws on me when I'm patting Bruno. I deliberately swap the order of who gets patted first and second and try to give affection equally. If Bella complains, she gets time out in her crate. This doesn't happen very often but you only have to let them get away with it once and it can become a bigger problem. Good luck with sorting this out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkS Posted December 24, 2007 Share Posted December 24, 2007 (edited) Hi squeak In regards to the licking. Remove the attention as soon as he starts. For example, if you go to pat and he goes to lick your hand, immediately remove your hand and a firm no. Move hand forward again, he goes to lick, remove hand immediately, and firm no. Repetition and consistency is important. So many without realising give their dogs to many mixed signals. How many times when we are in a happy mood we allow a certain behaviour, then other times when not in the mood we correct the behaviour? The not allowing you to socialise with your other dog? I personally believe its about claiming your own space. Dogs learn very quickly that claiming space allows control. When a dog is trying to claim my space, I firmly push him away, and I keep at this every time he comes back to test me until he either gives in to it, or comes to me with more relaxed and non assertive body language. If you have the correct body language, and be assertive, your dog will eventually give in to it. If you watch dogs in their natural environment higher dogs claim their space. I use this method in many situations. I especially teach my dog that he NEVER invades my space without my permission. So even if for example I am just sitting on the floor, if my dog comes to me with assertive body language and invades my space, I push him away. If he comes over not trying to claim my space, but is more relaxed and in a calm state, I give him attention. I then decide when the game starts if any, not him. My dog knows when he wants to come and socialise with me, he is in a calm state, he understands I always claim my space.. I can then easily switch on an excited state and play rough with him, and also I can stop the game immediately with no effort, as I ALWAYS control my space, and he knows that. Hope this helps Edited December 24, 2007 by MarkS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squeak Posted December 24, 2007 Share Posted December 24, 2007 Thanks BP and Mark. We think Murphy is about 20 months old. I have been trying to ignore the licking, but it's tough... I know it is all about consistency, and I think I need to have a good honest look to see if I am being consistent. But, with extinction, just reassure me that it is likely to get worse before it gets better, right?! We are working on leadership, but I think that it is something that may take some time, as when we got him, he did not appear to have any training. He is just starting to understand "sit" and we are starting to use this - sit for pats instead of jumping, sit before we go for a walk/inside/outside, etc. Mark, I have been trying to do a similar thing to what you suggest in "claiming my space". When I want to pat Stormy and he intrudes, I deliberately put myself between them, with my back to him, and continue to do so, until he calms and either walks away, or stops trying to win my attention. It seems to be working, somewhat, I guess that I am probably just being a little impatient at the moment. It all takes time, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonymc Posted December 24, 2007 Share Posted December 24, 2007 Squeak,whats the relationship between the two Dogs like?Who do you see as top Dog? Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkS Posted December 24, 2007 Share Posted December 24, 2007 Squeak Just a little point, usually turning your back is not being assertive toward your dog. When a dog asserts him/herself over another dog they don't turn their back on them, they move forwards, with assertive body language (claiming the space). Some may disagree with me here, I however believe for an overly assertive dog, you need to watch what he does and copy, but be more assertive. He doesn't turn his back on you to claim his space, he enforces it with confident body language. The method of turning your back on him may eventually work, but very slowly. Dogs are experts at picking up body language. For example if I want to stop my dog charging up to a door when visitors come, I turn and face my dog and claim the space with assertive body language, I don't turn my back on him. Sure I agree blocking does work in many situations, you have to take it case by case. Dogs that arn't overly assertive will usually give in to a block and walk off. Those that believe they control the space, its less likely to be as affective quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonymc Posted December 24, 2007 Share Posted December 24, 2007 Quote from Mark. Just a little point, usually turning your back is not being assertive toward your dog. When a dog asserts him/herself over another dog they don't turn their back on them, they move forwards, with assertive body language (claiming the space). Exactly Mark. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squeak Posted December 24, 2007 Share Posted December 24, 2007 Tony - the relationship between the two dogs seems good (to me). At the moment, I am not sure who I see as the top dog, but believe as "leader" I should be able to pat who I want, when I want (and I could be wrong on this). At the moment, I am probably slightly leaning toward thinking that Stormy will emerge as top dog, but am still very open-minded about this. Stormy tends to be the one who calls it quits on play first - I am not sure if this is a tiredness or a top dog thing. Also, sometimes Murphy will try to initiate play, but Stormy is not interested. I have also noticed that she will sometimes claim the paddling pool as hers, and not let Murphy in it for a while - but she usually bores and changes the game. The only other thing that has made me think that Stormy may become top dog is when they were playing together with a toy - they both went for it at the same time, and Stormy growled when she didn't get it, then took it from Murphy. I wasn't impressed with the growling, went crook on her and took the toy away from both of them.... rightly or wrongly. I have no doubt made mistakes, but I am trying to learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squeak Posted December 24, 2007 Share Posted December 24, 2007 Quote from Mark.Just a little point, usually turning your back is not being assertive toward your dog. When a dog asserts him/herself over another dog they don't turn their back on them, they move forwards, with assertive body language (claiming the space). Exactly Mark. Tony Okay, I will try to keep that in mind. I am on a very steep learning curve!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkS Posted December 24, 2007 Share Posted December 24, 2007 Howdy Tony I get what you maybe thinking...pay attention to higher dog first? I used to go along with this philosophy, but over the years I have come less a believer in paying attention to higher dog first. If a dog is trying to get my attention I as packleader dictates who gets the attention, not the dogs. I used to think that if you didn't pay attetion to the higher dog first, you create competition and a dog that needs to reassert itself over the other dog. I look at dogs running together, higher dog doesn't always socialise with next inline first. He decides who he wants to socialise with, he doesn't allow a lower dog to dictate that. I feel that as long as my dogs see me as a packleader, and not one of them sees themself as packleader, then fighting or competing for leadership is less likely to happen. I find in homes where one dog has elevated himself to top position and that includes the family, then yes you will create competition for leadership by paying attention to the lower dog and pushing the higher dog away. But if my dogs respect me, then I dictate the rules. Most homes I have gone to and dogs are fighting for higher ranking, its because one of the dogs controls the home. If I have jumped in to early I apologise.... just a little of my philosophy anyways Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonymc Posted December 24, 2007 Share Posted December 24, 2007 No problem Mark. Squeak, does this dog show any sign of herding type behaviour? tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squeak Posted December 24, 2007 Share Posted December 24, 2007 No problem Mark. Squeak, does this dog show any sign of herding type behaviour? tony I am not quite sure what you mean by this. He doesn't appear to try to "round up" either myself, hubby or our other dog. He will mouth/lick your bare toes, and when he runs/plays with Stormy, he does short-cut corners (I think because he is slower) and tries to "tackle" her from underneath, again, I think it is because he is slower/heavier than her. It is still very early days, and I probably haven't seen enough of any of his behaviour to be clearer on this, I'm sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrunoBella Posted December 24, 2007 Share Posted December 24, 2007 Squeak, I agree it is a long hard road. I have only owned dogs for four years and it took me the first 18 months to get any idea of what I believed in and what worked for me. I got some one on one coaching and have now leapt ahead in leaps and bounds. I continuously review my technique cause it's really easy to fall back into bad habits. I find that it doesn't take me very long to implement new rules and get the dogs to follow them. When I was using positive based training only (what I was originally taught) training took so long that I could never see any progress. With the right mix of positives and negatives this has changed dramatically. I only learnt about space a few months ago and it is such a great tool. I am now very strong on keeping my space as well and move towards the dogs if they misbehave. I also use this to keep them from jumping on visitors and to stop them from barking at people walking past. I have never known how to do this before. Love all your posts MarkS. Are you new? BP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkS Posted December 24, 2007 Share Posted December 24, 2007 Thanks for your kind words BellasPerson. Yes new to the forum, but not to dogs I have never really be one interested in forums.. I have been to toooo many that just end up being a "No I am right, you are wrong". Typed words can be taken the wrong way when trying to discuss things, and then the whole thread ends up being personal attacks. But what I have seen here so far..all looks pretty good, so may hang around abit. I tend to be a bit "out there" to some people in regards to training and behaviour. But I use what works for me. I am more on instinctive forms of training. Mainly based on body language, projecting the right attitude, pack structure, drives, etc. I also tend to ramble a bit at times...but hey if it makes for interesting reading.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrunoBella Posted December 24, 2007 Share Posted December 24, 2007 I knew you weren't new to dogs! I have become a convert to drive training and am learning as fast as I can. I started on positive training and socialising in dog parks and ended up being pulled down the street by Bella on a Halti and despairing of ever being able to get any better and Bella ended up with fear agression. Now I've headed down the direction of drive training, correction and learning about pack behaviour everything is fantastic and my new dog has no problems that aren't simple to fix. I think it might take me another 40 years to learn all there is to know about living with dogs . BP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted December 24, 2007 Share Posted December 24, 2007 I tend to be a bit "out there" to some people in regards to training and behaviour. But I use what works for me. I am more on instinctive forms of training. Mainly based on body language, projecting the right attitude, pack structure, drives, etc.I also tend to ramble a bit at times...but hey if it makes for interesting reading.... :cool: Hey! So marry me!!! From what I've read so far, we think very much alike! Merry Christmas, Mark .... and to all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkS Posted December 24, 2007 Share Posted December 24, 2007 Hmmmm... love to Erny.. but not sure my partner would agree, she can be a little domineering in that department and I definitely let her claim that space. I know where I fit into the pack in that situation... lol Merry Christmas to you Erny.. I look foward to many enlightening conversations! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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