Need Some More Opinions From Dolers

[pomquest]

Hi,

We recently got two new puppies & flew them up from Sydney. Within days the boy was ill and was taken to our Vet. Unfortunately, our regular Vet was not there and he was seen by a stand-in. She diagnosed Parvo although I questioned her diagnosis as he had recently had his first needle and they can test positve to the live vaccine. His syptoms were similar to Parvo with vomitting, diahorrea and lethargy. He never had the apparently unforgettable Parvo stench though & he was dead within 36 hours of first showing symtoms. Another Vet who has subsequently treated other littermates still in Sydney doesnt think it was Parvo although they died as well. Anyway, the other puppy we flew up is now showing the same symptoms as her brother after almost two weeks of waiting and watching her every move and even beginning to think we had avoided it. We are doing everything we can to help her fight it. She has been on Protexin, Vitamin C and Nutrigel every day (before she got sick). Today I took her to the Vet (she first gave us reason for concern last night) and instead of putting her on an IV drip we elected to SubQ her with fluids instead. She has been given antibiotics both injected and orally. We have also given her Vitamin C injections as some professionals believe in Vit C therapy working miracles. She is getting weaker though as she can not keep any food down, only tiny quantities of Nutrigel. She hasn't pooed (runny or otherwise) since this morning, probably because she has nothing in her tummy. Does anyone have any answers? Has anyone been through this before? Has anyones Vet come up with a logical explanation for inexplicable sicknesses?

I am putting this out there in DOL land in the hope someone will have some answers.

[The Spotted Devil]

How awful and sad

Has the vet actually done a test for parvo? There are in-house diagnostic tests available - perhaps it would at least give you an idea....if it IS parvo, it stays in the environment for ages so it wouldn't be surprising that your other pup got sick.

I really hope your sick pup recovers

[badboyz]

Oh you poor thing - how very sad. I hope your little girl pulls through. Do let us know if you find the answer. I hope someone here can help.

[RuralPug]

So sad you're going through this.

Viruses mutate all the time. There are any number of uncommon viruses that can be fatal to those without robust immune systems - puppies, the aged, the ill. Also some of these mutated viruses mutate themselves out of existence very quickly by being so lethal that no hosts survive to spread them. The result is one reason for "inexplicable" disease. About all that one can hope to do in those cases is try and keep the victim hydrated and nourished until their own immune system overcomes the invader - this can be an incredibly difficult task.

I hope your little one survives.

[JulesP]

That is no good. Someone on another forum just lost puppies to something that sounds familiar. Similar to parvo, without the smell. She was thinking it was the wormer.

[Nekhbet]

why did you subQ? The fluids help keep the blood pressure up as well, how about inserting a gastric tube and IV fluids?

yes a lot may come out the back end but pump enough in through IV and gastric tubing you may have a chance. Her guts are empty so she's not pooing is she urinating at all? She could be drying up on the inside.

Have you had a fecal sample tested? Are they sure its not Giardia or some other internal parasite that can cause problems?

[pomquest]

Viruses mutate all the time. There are any number of uncommon viruses that can be fatal to those without robust immune systems - puppies, the aged, the ill. Also some of these mutated viruses mutate themselves out of existence very quickly by being so lethal that no hosts survive to spread them. The result is one reason for "inexplicable" disease. About all that one can hope to do in those cases is try and keep the victim hydrated and nourished until their own immune system overcomes the invader - this can be an incredibly difficult task.

We had a call from a very nice person last night who made us aware of a very widespread "unknown" virus with many litters being lost with these symptoms. Our vet is of the opinion that it is a mutate as you suggest and we are doing everything to boost her immunity that we can which we have been doing for over 2 weeks now hoping she ward it off but unfortunately it is now getting the better of her.

[pomquest]

That is no good. Someone on another forum just lost puppies to something that sounds familiar. Similar to parvo, without the smell. She was thinking it was the wormer.

It does sound familiar, could you please let us know the forum/thread?

[pomquest]

why did you subQ? The fluids help keep the blood pressure up as well, how about inserting a gastric tube and IV fluids?

yes a lot may come out the back end but pump enough in through IV and gastric tubing you may have a chance. Her guts are empty so she's not pooing is she urinating at all? She could be drying up on the inside.

Have you had a fecal sample tested? Are they sure its not Giardia or some other internal parasite that can cause problems?

Of all the litters that have had this mystery virus there hasn't been any puppies survive using IV (to our knowledge), yet with the subQ approach there has been success so we are trying to go with the odds. Yes she has had samples and is definitely viral. Thank you for the gastric tube suggestion. We have discussed with our vet and he doesn't recommend as yet but will look at in 24 hours if she continues vomitting. At the moment he is reluctant to as worried it will aggravate vomiting and is sticking with Maxolon to help. She is getting 0.2ml of Nutrigel every 2 hours (she is only 650grams) and is keeping some down if we restrict any access to her water for 15mins afterwards. She is urinating freely at the moment but has not had any form of bowel movement for 24 hours.

[JulesP]

It was on the horse forum Eques. I think about 3-4 puppies died. 2 were still alive on drips last I heard. The puppies died pretty quickly. They were big pups too and were 6 weeks old. I'll try and raise her on the other forum and see how the remaining 2 pups are going.

[bonny_beagle]

Goodluck with your pup, I have had sucess with subcut fluid with a very dehydrated pound pup. Not sure how your vet is doing it but we would put in about 50mL (much bigger pup than yours) to make a big lump under the skin, wait for it to absorb and then go again. If the kidneys are ok she will start weeing if she's not already. My only suggestion would be to maybe rest her orally and just give fluids for 48hours, and make sure its fluid with glucose/dextrose in it. The best I think is the 0.45 saline with 2.5 glucose, but Hartmans otherwise.

Make sure the antibiotic is right for a GI infection too - I've been told septrin/lincomycin are good ones.

Edited December 15, 2007 by bonny_beagle

[JulesP]

4 of the puppies died. The vet did an autopsy but couldn't find anything. This lady is in Queensland too.

[pomquest]

4 of the puppies died. The vet did an autopsy but couldn't find anything. This lady is in Queensland too.

Did she manage to save any? If so, how?

[pomquest]

Goodluck with your pup, I have had sucess with subcut fluid with a very dehydrated pound pup. Not sure how your vet is doing it but we would put in about 50mL (much bigger pup than yours) to make a big lump under the skin, wait for it to absorb and then go again. If the kidneys are ok she will start weeing if she's not already. My only suggestion would be to maybe rest her orally and just give fluids for 48hours, and make sure its fluid with glucose/dextrose in it. The best I think is the 0.45 saline with 2.5 glucose, but Hartmans otherwise.

Make sure the antibiotic is right for a GI infection too - I've been told septrin/lincomycin are good ones.

Thanks for the info. She is getting about 8ml saline + glucose subQ every 4-6 hours (using gum colour and skin pinch test as guide for sooner or later). It makes a reasonable lump but not so that there is a lot of pressure against the skin. She is peeing ok so kidneys are holding up. The Lectade mixed for her water bowl has glucose in to.

The antibiotic being used is Cephalexin administed IM daily and we have tablets to give her orally as well. It treats GI infections and is apparently very safe whereby the potential for over dosages is low, eg try giving anything 1/8th of a 5mm tablet .....

[bonny_beagle]

If she's weeing surely thats a good sign

There is no injectable form of cephalexin, it must be another cephalosporin such as cephalothin or cefotaxime. Most antibiotics are safe and human paediatric doses can be used I believe. Am not as good as I should be on my antibiotics but I think you could be doing better than a cephalosporin. Her viral infection will run its course but could cause a breakdown in the integrity of the gut wall allowing normal gut flora to invade the peritonium which is highly dangerous hence the antibiotic choice being important. Sorry, am probably telling you stuff you already have from the vet. Goodluck and best wishes to your little girl

Edited December 15, 2007 by bonny_beagle

[Ahona]

Can I suggest an immune system boosting mix from a holistic vet?

If vets don't know what's causing it and you need to keep her going and let her immune system fight it, then that might help a lot!

I hope she's okay

[pomquest]

Can I suggest an immune system boosting mix from a holistic vet?

If vets don't know what's causing it and you need to keep her going and let her immune system fight it, then that might help a lot!

I hope she's okay

Do you have any in mind Ahona? We are open to all suggestions.

[chloebear]

sorry can't offer any advice, but I am crossing my fingers and toes hoping for the best.

[Erny]

We are open to all suggestions.

Pomquest ..... for what it is worth, I never think "Active Manuka Honey" is a waste of time nor effort. Dogs love it - it is therefore generally easy to administer. Purchase from a health food shop - it isn't cheap (about $25.00 for quite a small jar), but purchasing a cheap variety generally won't give you the immune system healing properties that the good quality stuff does.

I don't know about other holistic remedies that might be available, so not answering to that question. But I'm quite confident that the AMH won't cause any harm - only good.

Worth a try?

PS .... you can take some too - spread it on your toast or whatever. Won't hurt towards keeping YOUR strength up whilst you're having to deal with this. Good luck.

Edited December 15, 2007 by Erny

[JulesP]

This is what the other lady said about treatment:

"We used the same treatment for all:

First noticed they were ill - took them to the vet who gave them all a shot of "dectomax" (sp) to clense them of worms etc. Then once they stopped drinking on their own they got honey, powerade powder and water syringed down their throats as often as I could. This seemed to work to keep them hydrated as none of the pups died from actual dehydration...it was more of a system shutdown in the end.

They also were on a product called "scourban" and were injected with long acting antibiotics.

That's pretty much the treatment...the Little fellow who lived actually went through the same things symptom wise as all the others but instead of crashing he started getting better...all the others got "better" twice and then died very quickly.

I think the main thing was for this little fellow as he started to drink on his own again...I don't know why he did but he did. He was on the road to recovery when I sent him in to the vets for the drip to speed his recovery along.

The autopsy revealed nothing out of the ordinary, a few worms but the vet said there was definately not enough to kill the pups. There was minor hemoraging of the small intestine but once again nothing to kill them...."