Kavik Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 I think management vs training depends a lot on the strategies you employ. I use management with Zoe's dog aggression - I avoid other dogs when walking her. But with Kaos's reactivity with certain dogs I would really like to use training to improve his behaviour - just need some help as to how. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted December 12, 2007 Author Share Posted December 12, 2007 I also use management for Rex - just couldnt be bothered and dint see the light at the end of the tunnel so I gave up. However with Divani I perservered and at the ob club Xmas party she was happily off lead with countless dogs people and kids around her. That made me very happy I must say I thought you got help Kavik. Mind you having the baby didnt help with the timing did it? Are you back at training at Homebush? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 M: Meaning the woman decided to take on the advice given to her. And have I mentioned how often or how infrequently she comes to the club???? K9: Its the trainers job to get the information accross in a way that the client understands & can implement.. M: You as in me? or the club? K9: something in your eye? M: You wouldnt know what kind of a job we do or dont do. K9: I am sure I have worked with several people from that club, maybe I am wrong... I recall extending in invitation to you to come and give a self promo lecture to the members and you wouldnt take it up for less than what was it? $800? for couple of hours? K9: I think your memory fails you, but here are a couple of pointers for you... 1. I am not into Self Promotion, dont need it. 2. I have run similar things for clubs AND you in the past, & the charge was no where near $800.00 3. Its in poor taste to discuss my fee's on an open forum. M: BTW - so far I like all the replies in the thread but would like to stay on topic a bit more pls. K9: People who start threads dont have the power of moderation. Most threads end up off topic, thats the beauty of communication. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted December 12, 2007 Author Share Posted December 12, 2007 (edited) M: You as in me? or the club? K9: something in your eye? if you meant me here is something I wrote earlier I have send the woman to you as well, but I dont think she ever bothered to make an appointement. and I wrote that I dont train her, I take the begginers classes, she isnt in begginers. Attendence in class isnt compulsory in our club, some people come once every 6 weeks... K9: I am sure I have worked with several people from that club, maybe I am wrong... No you are right, I brought some with me to the workshops I organised and send few for private lessons. Mostly students, tho. Trish (the only instructor from the club) that attended the drive workshop. ruthless that came to the club after she had been to you. Oh and my friend with two dobes - she came to couple of workshops and had a lesson with you I think, not sure... maybe you should contact her if you think that K9: Its the trainers job to get the information accross in a way that the client understands & can implement.. as she isnt using the ecollar at all... and hasnt used it.2. I have run similar things for clubs AND you in the past, & the charge was no where near $800.00 Feel free to PM me your fee Ill ask them again, but not till March as we broke for summer. We train on Saturdays so you would have to be available on a Saturday. I would like a summary of what you can offer to the club, otherwise there is no point me talking to the rest of the commitee. Or if you have aversion to dealing with me Im sure you have got Trishs details. Good luck any club needs improvements and they are best noticed by the outsiders Edited December 12, 2007 by myszka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubitty Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 Quick question, my Bubby used to be totally non focused and used to stare off into the distance at Obedience (while dropping to the ground)? With all the tips I got from the instructors (hehehehe got myszka a few times! She’s not evil at all despite the rumors!!!!!), I managed to train him to “focus” and “ignore” every time I ask. Would you say that was training him or managing his tendency to drift off? Also have managed to get him to “ignore” cats!!! Yay!!!! One walked by the other day, right in front of his nose and……………..ta da! No pulling or anything! He walked nicely like a civilised little dog! Again is this training him to ignore cats or just to manage his desire to run off and chase them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 (edited) Kaos is better than he was, has run offlead at herding with other Kelpies and BCs, with sidoney's dogs and with some I know in local area, depends on the temperament of the other dog. He has some that he adores. He is better with other Kelpies and BCs and with calmer dogs. He reacts to dogs which are bouncy and playful or dominant. I would love to get him to be more tolerant of bouncy, playful and dominant dogs. Not play, but at least be more tolerant and not react. ETA: Not back at training at homebush yet, hopefully at the start of next year. Have to wean him onto a martingale, think they would flip if I used a pinch collar, even with a bandanna . . . Edited December 12, 2007 by Kavik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted December 12, 2007 Author Share Posted December 12, 2007 (hehehehe got myszka a few times! She’s not evil at all despite the rumors!!!!!), Stop it Bub, you are wrecking my reputation everyone knows Im on a mission to destroy the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 B: With all the tips I got from the instructors (hehehehe got myszka a few times! She’s not evil at all despite the rumors!!!!!), I managed to train him to “focus” and “ignore” every time I ask. Would you say that was training him or managing his tendency to drift off? K9: Always nice to hear that those I have taught are doing well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted December 12, 2007 Author Share Posted December 12, 2007 I guess Bubby wasnt out of my league Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 I guess Bubby wasnt out of my league K9: one would hope not, given the amount of time you have invested... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted December 12, 2007 Author Share Posted December 12, 2007 Its a pleasure for me to invest time in learning how to help other people and than helping them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted December 12, 2007 Author Share Posted December 12, 2007 (edited) Hey K9 since you seem to enjoy conversing with me today (for a change, oh what a thrill ) perhaps you will be willing to answer this. on the topic mangement v's training - at several workshops that I have organised with you I had noticed that during breaks you walked your dogs separatelly out for toilet the few steps outside the door on prong collars. Also during one of my lessons when I wanted to see your bitches recall, you have put the ecollar on her and after she recalled (beautifully I might add) you told me that you had no need to stim her on the way. Why the need for the gear? Edited December 12, 2007 by myszka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 M: Hey K9 since you seem to enjoy conversing with me today (for a change, oh what a thrill ) K9: yes I am sure you are thrilled... perhaps you will be willing to answer this.on the topic mangement v's training - at several workshops that I have organised with you I had noticed that during breaks you walked your dogs separatelly out for toilet the few steps outside the door on prong collars. Also during one of my lessons when I wanted to see your bitches recall, you have put the ecollar on her and after she recalled (beautifully I might add) you told me that you had no need to stim her on the way. Why the need for the gear? K9: Its good policy to demonstrate the use of leashes when tehre are other dogs around, eg if I let my dogs out with no collar on at workshop it is a bad example. Why a prong? Its the easiest collar to fit.. It was probably fitted very loosely (laziness on m part), in private lessons when I have managed to get dogs to regress in aggression, it isnt unusual to have my dogs off leash with others here. When I do lessons with no dogs, just lessons that teach people how to train, again having my dogs loose isnt unusual, including the recent course I ran with the students, Kayne & Kandy were often in the room wit us all, no "gear..." When I demonstrated my dogs recall & heeling pattern to you & your husband I fitted the e collar yes, there are several reasons for this: - My dogs have not been formally trained for years, I just dont have the time.. I may have needed the collar if a mistake was made, but I think she heeled very well & recalled perfectly. As I have trained my dogs for patrol style work (for demonstration purposes), I use the e collar as a trigger that we are beginning work, thats the purpose it plays now. I have no need to wean them off the collar & I cant remember the last time I stimmed any of them for the purpose of correcting a mistake, but having said that, they are just pets now, & my expectations of them are a lot less. Long as I have a perfect, 100% reliable recall under distraction, no leash pulling, drop on the run etc, that will do me these days.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted December 12, 2007 Author Share Posted December 12, 2007 Thanks for a great reply, Im shocked you are willing to converse with me, I though you would be gone back to rope making by now Why a prong? Its the easiest collar to fit.. It was probably fitted very loosely (laziness on m part), horses for courses I guess. Id think a loose martingale is easier to throw over the dogs head than putting on a prong and making sure it wont come undone. Would you say your dogs are collar smart? I know that Rex is for sure collar smart, I also havent had the need to wean him off the collar. Mind you I did get comments that my dog isnt trained if I cant get the collar off him and get the same results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 M: Thanks for a great reply, Im shocked you are willing to converse with me, I though you would be gone back to rope making by now K9: Rope is already made, just waiting for the need to use it... M: Id think a loose martingale is easier to throw over the dogs head than putting on a prong and making sure it wont come undone K9: Like I said, its for an example, I dont need to make sure it wont come undone, they arent dog aggressive & respond very well to voice commands... M: Would you say your dogs are collar smart? K9: Nope, there would have been maybe two or three times since then (2 years ago plus) that I would have had the e collar on that dog, & she responds very well all of the time... M: I know that Rex is for sure collar smart, I also havent had the need to wean him off the collar.Mind you I did get comments that my dog isnt trained if I cant get the collar off him and get the same results. K9: & some say the e collar is cheating, those who say that often have very litle training results to speak of though... K9 out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted December 12, 2007 Author Share Posted December 12, 2007 K9: Rope is already made, just waiting for the need to use it... be carefull that it doesnt wrap around you I will now not hold my breath waiting for that PM with the fee you want to charge to visist my club Try not to rush with replying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jesomil Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 Just a question, although i may be on the wrong track. Isnt using a correction collar of any sort once the dog is trained, management? I would assume that once a dog has a 100% reliable recall, one would not need to continue to use the tools? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 Just a question, although i may be on the wrong track.Isnt using a correction collar of any sort once the dog is trained, management? I would assume that once a dog has a 100% reliable recall, one would not need to continue to use the tools? I'd call that maintenance rather than management. You know what they say 'never work with dogs or kids' . My dog may have recalled 100% out of the last 200 recalls. That doesn't mean that there won't be a situation arise when she may not recall and I'd like to be in the position to enforce that recall if I could. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 Isnt using a correction collar of any sort once the dog is trained, management?I would assume that once a dog has a 100% reliable recall, one would not need to continue to use the tools? K9: no, once the equipment is paired with an activity, specially an activity trained in drive, the equipment becomes a trigger... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jesomil Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 So, just say you are out, and somehow dont have the equiptment, can you still expect 100% from the dog? I am not talking about rewards or corrrections, i just mean having to use the collars once the dog is trained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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