poodlefan Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 (edited) Rachelle: I don't think it is as simple as that. The dog knows when the line is on that under any circumstance/condition it has to obey, but it also knows that once the line is removed then all bets are off. How do you think a dog learns this Rachelle? My immediate reaction is that one method has be trained using mainly compulsion, whereas the other cannot. This is one of my objections to using physical corrections with a leash to teach heel work and to place a dog in a sit or down position.... what do you do when the leash comes off and when you aren't right next to the dog. Edited December 11, 2007 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted December 11, 2007 Author Share Posted December 11, 2007 (edited) The dog recalls absolutly fine from play with other dogs, when the line is on. The line is a bit dangerous as it can get tangled up with other dogs etc. If the owner leaves the lead on the dog knows its a lead not a line. And hey Rachelle - c'mon you should know better , my dogs have very good recalls and I dont teach with a long line Edited December 11, 2007 by myszka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 Myzska, All I could suggest is that an informal recall be retrained without the line starting with a fresh cue, plenty of positive reinforcement and a very slow and steady increase in levels of distance and distraction. Smart dog!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted December 11, 2007 Author Share Posted December 11, 2007 He is (GSD)!!! He has been a bit of a nightmare for the owner, I dont get her in class all the time but she does come to me after classes to double check etc. He has a high value for other dogs. Im limited with what I can recomend to this lady. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 He is (GSD)!!! He has been a bit of a nightmare for the owner, I dont get her in class all the time but she does come to me after classes to double check etc. He has a high value for other dogs. Im limited with what I can recomend to this lady. What's the relationship with the dog like at home? I'm smelling leadership issues????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted December 11, 2007 Author Share Posted December 11, 2007 You are smelling? It stinks a mile away There is only so much I can say/do/offer. Nice dog tho and smart. And definitelly line smart. And line took ma a loooong time to convince. She loves it now at least but would like to get rid off it at some stage, and cant. Moving forward in the subject - I had a lot of probs with Rexs recall and I have finally tought him with the ecollar. For a piece of mind I always put the collar on him when Im going to let him off in a high distraction area, just in case. I personally have no need to wean him off the ecollar so I never bothered, but Rex is for sure collar smart. On that note, those that use prongs to train the dogs to walk on loose lead, and continue to use them later, why dont you transfer later to the martingale or a flat if the dog isnt pulling any more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 (edited) On that note, those that use prongs to train the dogs to walk on loose lead, and continue to use them later, why dont you transfer later to the martingale or a flat if the dog isnt pulling any more? Insurance? If I had a 65kg dog and could use a prong, I'd consider it even if it walked beautifully on a loose lead. I'd have the owner of the GSD doing NILIF and TOT ASAP!! Edited December 11, 2007 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted December 11, 2007 Author Share Posted December 11, 2007 PF - the owner is doing it already, mind you I ahve no way of checking to what extend, and what she tells me might not be what she does. I have to say that the husband once brought the dog for the class, it was as if he brought a different animal with him Now re prongs - do you remember about a year ago how someone got chucked out from EP on a rottie day for having a dog on a prong? And prongs can come off.... and when they do its usually in the really wrong moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 (edited) I guess that whether a tool is a training tool or a management tool can depend on your goals and reasons for using it. To me training is about learning and management is about prevention or restriction. In the case of halti vs prong it could be said that both could fall into either category because instances can be found where both are used as a preventative without training. Both can start out as a management tool so that learning can take place...so they may then end up a training tool. The difference to me is whether or not learning takes place....so as well as being goal dependent, that can depend on method. I agree that a prong collar can fall into a management category when training isnt coupled with it. However i cant see how a haltie can fall into that category. The timing of corrections are not precise so it cant possibly train the dog. For me the test is whether or not the dog learns, not whether or not it is possible. The halti is not my tool of choice for many reasons.....including that I don't feel that it gives the dog a clear enough message, but having said that I'll pull up short at claiming that all dogs cannot learn on a halti. (Thats evolution of learning for you....once upon a time I wouldn't have said that!) When do you think the management becomes training? And than when does the tool have to be removed? (if ever?) Even ecollars the "remote trainer" can be a management tool when used in certain ways... for example i used my ecollar to stop my dog making long eye contact with other dogs..this managed the problem but at the same it was training her that being near other dogs is not always bad. If your dog learned not to make eye contact with other dogs, then I'd call this training. To me management would be blocking your dogs view of or restricting its ability to see other dogs. I have used a lot of tools when training my dogs and realise that with one dog I still use the tools that supposed to be a training tool as a management tool, and I never progressed.Some dogs are tool/collar smart and Im wondering if its a faliure on the trainers side to wean the dog off the particular tool. Views? I think its more that the dog has been able to pair consequences with the tool. If training is set up so that the dog is never able to pair consequences with the tool, then they would be less likely to become smart to that tool. Rachelle:I don't think it is as simple as that. The dog knows when the line is on that under any circumstance/condition it has to obey, but it also knows that once the line is removed then all bets are off. How do you think a dog learns this Rachelle? My immediate reaction is that one method has be trained using mainly compulsion, whereas the other cannot. Not necessarily. It could be that the dog has paired the long line with a sequence of events that happens in a predictable manner and also that the dog has paired the removal of the long line with a sequence of events that happens in a predictable manner. In other words there has been a mistake in the training that has allowed the dog to learn that he doesn't have to obey in the absence of the long line. Edited December 11, 2007 by Rom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 Myszka and everyone, Lately my favourite tool has been a fly swatter (on a lanyard), I look like a dork but who cares!!!! (1) Dogs can retrieve it (2) Dogs can be stroked with it (3) Dogs can be corrected/reinforced with it (4) I can shoo the flies away. (5) Mrs Joe blow public thinks nothing of it, even though as mentioned.......I look like a dork, mostly when I forget to take the damm thing off my neck, when visiting the general store. Must be more uses, but that will do for now. LOL. All for a one dollar tool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted December 11, 2007 Author Share Posted December 11, 2007 I am definitelly getting one LL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 Remember to tie it around your neck, so it is close at hand. Dorks unite!!!!!! PS Just in case you leave it on, have a quick release, if jammed in a door for example. Strangulation and all, eeeeeeeck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 M: Not my dog, and as its a dog that belongs to the ob club I cant recomend the ecollar. K9: Perhaps the Ob (which I thought stands for Obedience) club could recommend some course of action, seeing as it seems as though they can say what you cant do... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted December 11, 2007 Author Share Posted December 11, 2007 (edited) They/we (as Im part of the club and one of the instructors) have recomended the long line, to which the lady took with reluctance at first. This is a typical scenario of a wrong dog for the wrong person. But I must say that after hitting my head on a brick wall for months its seems that the stuff I tell her (and what other instructors tell her) starts to work, so its not that she or the family isnt doing anything. Oh yeah and I have send the woman to you as well, but I dont think she ever bothered to make an appointement. Edited December 11, 2007 by myszka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 K9: Must be committed if she has been at it for months with only minimal results... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted December 11, 2007 Author Share Posted December 11, 2007 (edited) She is. but she cant see a reason to go and spend money on professional advice or expensive gear. last summer I lend her my own prong, as there was no way she would buy one. She only took mine as the dog pulled her of her feed and she had a knee reconstruction. Seemed to work well enough she has him on a martingale and manages well enough in class. She has progressed into higher classes, I dont get to instruct her often (if ever), I take beginners. meant to say she had a knee reconstruction prior and was affraid about what will happen if e pulles her "properly" Edited December 11, 2007 by myszka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 K9: I guess if I was working with a dog that was out of my skills to correct I would stop working with that dog, it does the dog nor the owner any good to practice on with a menthod that isnt working... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted December 11, 2007 Author Share Posted December 11, 2007 I guess you are making a big wide assumption about abilities or inabilities of the instructors (that you know nothing about) in the club. I also cant recall ever stating that the lady achieved minimal results with her dog nor that I specified the time frame she trained/managed the dog in.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 M: I guess you are making a big wide assumption about abilities or inabilities of the instructors (that you know nothing about) in the club. I also cant recall ever stating that the lady achieved minimal results with her dog nor that I specified the time frame she trained/managed the dog in.... K9: sorry wasnt it you who wrote this? M: But I must say that after hitting my head on a brick wall for months its seems that the stuff I tell her (and what other instructors tell her) K9: Its fine, I am sure your doing a bang up job over there, over the months... But if you start a thread, your most likely going to get replies to it. Liking all of those replies isnt something that will happen every time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted December 12, 2007 Author Share Posted December 12, 2007 In the same sentence I wrote that the stuff I tell her (and what other instructors tell her) starts to work, Meaning the woman decided to take on the advice given to her. And have I mentioned how often or how infrequently she comes to the club???? K9: Its fine, I am sure your doing a bang up job over there, over the months... You as in me? or the club? You wouldnt know what kind of a job we do or dont do. I recall extending in invitation to you to come and give a self promo lecture to the members and you wouldnt take it up for less than what was it? $800? for couple of hours? I will sugest to the club again to employ a professional as they might have ideas on things we could be doing better. Just not sure if the club will be prepared to make that sort of an investement. BTW - so far I like all the replies in the thread but would like to stay on topic a bit more pls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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