Training V's Management

[MonElite]

What do you consider management tool and what do you consider training tool and why?

[Tonymc]

What do I consider management?I consider management to be the providing of Food,Shelter,Water and proper pack management.This management supplies the Dog with his basic needs.So a management tool to me is proper pack enviroment.

A training tool could be one of hundreds of things.Ranging from more abstract to the physical.An abstract training tool would be the self and a Collar would be an example of a physical tool. Tony

[MonElite]

I was thinking more along the lines of a haltie v's prong collar.

Halties are labeled management tools, where prongs are labeled training tools.

Do you belive there is a difference?

[poodlefan]

I was thinking more along the lines of a haltie v's prong collar.

Halties are labeled management tools, where prongs are labeled training tools.

Do you belive there is a difference?

Not in the example you quote Myzska. Both work specifically to motivate the dog not to pull on a lead.

To me "training" is modifying behaviour by changing the behaviour of the dog. "Management" modifies behaviour by making it more or less rewarding to the dog but doesn't attempt to change it for something else.

Some management tools may decrease the frequency of behaviour but the true test of whether behaviour is being modified or simply controlled is what happens when that tool is removed.

Does that make sense!

[Cosmolo]

I think most tools can be either depending on how you use them. To classify, you would need to define what a management tool does and what a training tool does.

[MonElite]

I think the definition PF presented is what I think, and I agree any tool can be a management or training tool.

I guess Im asking why do "we" lables some tools as management only? Cant they be training tools?

[Tonymc]

PF,your post makes perfect sense.I may be splitting hairs here but I query the view of Halti"s being even management.To me they are more a masking of a problem. Maybe it is management by default? Tony

[Griffo]

PF,your post makes perfect sense.I may be splitting hairs here but I query the view of Halti"s being even management.To me they are more a masking of a problem. Maybe it is management by default? Tony

Tony, i understand that, i hesitate to call them a management tool as they aren't even that good IMO. Masking tool is a much better term!!

I think a management tool can lead to training, hence it being a training tool. For example, in the beginning of my dog's program, i used to crate her when people came around. That would manage the problem in the sense she couldn't attack, but at the same time it was training her, and resulted in us being able to move to the next step.

[MonElite]

Great post Rachelle. When do you think the management becomes training? And than when does the tool have to be removed? (if ever?)

[Rom]

I guess that whether a tool is a training tool or a management tool can depend on your goals and reasons for using it.

To me training is about learning and management is about prevention or restriction.

In the case of halti vs prong it could be said that both could fall into either category because instances can be found where both are used as a preventative without training. Both can start out as a management tool so that learning can take place...so they may then end up a training tool. The difference to me is whether or not learning takes place....so as well as being goal dependent, that can depend on method.

[Griffo]

I guess that whether a tool is a training tool or a management tool can depend on your goals and reasons for using it.

To me training is about learning and management is about prevention or restriction.

In the case of halti vs prong it could be said that both could fall into either category because instances can be found where both are used as a preventative without training. Both can start out as a management tool so that learning can take place...so they may then end up a training tool. The difference to me is whether or not learning takes place....so as well as being goal dependent, that can depend on method.

I agree that a prong collar can fall into a management category when training isnt coupled with it. However i cant see how a haltie can fall into that category. The timing of corrections are not precise so it cant possibly train the dog.

When do you think the management becomes training? And than when does the tool have to be removed? (if ever?)

Off the top of my head, a good management tool will be training the whole time it is implemented. I cant think of a situation where it wouldnt be. Even something as simple as a tie-out is training your dog. Barking collars, counter surfing stoppers, they are training your dog, however in my eyes are also a management tool.

Even ecollars the "remote trainer" can be a management tool when used in certain ways... for example i used my ecollar to stop my dog making long eye contact with other dogs..this managed the problem but at the same it was training her that being near other dogs is not always bad.

I think the answer to that question depends on individual management tools, situations and dogs. I think it also depends on the confidence of the handler and whether they are ready to take the next step with their dog.

[poodlefan]

I think some tools are pure "management".

What does a dog learn from wearing a muzzle, other than that it cannot bite with one on?

You might be working on training other behaviours but as far as I can see, there's only one reason why a dog wears a muzzle and that's to prevent biting.

[MonElite]

I have used a lot of tools when training my dogs and realise that with one dog I still use the tools that supposed to be a training tool as a management tool, and I never progressed.

Some dogs are tool/collar smart and Im wondering if its a faliure on the trainers side to wean the dog off the particular tool. Views?

Edited December 11, 2007 by myszka

[poodlefan]

I have used a lot of tools when training my dogs and realise that with one dog I still use the tools that supposed to be a training tool as a management tool, and I never progressed.

Some dogs are tool/collar smart and Im wondering if its a faliure on the trainers side to wean the dog off the particular tool. Views?

What do you mean by "collar smart" Myzska - their behaviour is fine when it's on and reverts when it's off??

[Griffo]

I think some tools are pure "management".

What does a dog learn from wearing a muzzle, other than that it cannot bite with one on?

You might be working on training other behaviours but as far as I can see, there's only one reason why a dog wears a muzzle and that's to prevent biting.

Some dogs learn a sequence of behaviours... i have to growl, put my hackles up, step forward 5 steps... they end up with a whole chain of events which they believe they must go thru to guarantee their safety every time a certian situation arises ... if, heaven forbid, they do not raise their hackles, then the world might come crashing down around them.

If this behaviour has worked for them then they will continue on with it, refining it a bit to make it more effective (maybe adding a bite into the sequence...) and it will become a habit.

Sometimes it takes a tool like a muzzle to show the dog that the world will not come crashing down if they don't bite.... and they can even have a more positive experience without biting. Therefore having the muzzle on the dog has taken away the opportunity to bite and even given them a positive experience to start tipping the scales.

i think it might cross over into being a training tool in that instance.

[MonElite]

Yes PF.

Perhaps a better example would be that the dog is line smart. Someone is teaching the dog to recall with a long line, dog will recall 100 out of a 100 when the line is on, and not recall when the lines isnt attached.

Line has been shortened to looze the weight - dog is smart enough to know when there is a line v's when there is not.

Edited December 11, 2007 by myszka

[Griffo]

I have used a lot of tools when training my dogs and realise that with one dog I still use the tools that supposed to be a training tool as a management tool, and I never progressed.

Some dogs are tool/collar smart and Im wondering if its a faliure on the trainers side to wean the dog off the particular tool. Views?

I think so. There are things you can do to overcome this from happening. I just have to show my dog the ecollar and her behaviour dramatically improves. However at the same time lately i have only been using it or her for barking (for a number of different reasons). With a bit of work tho i am sure this could be fixed tho so she was not so collar smart.

However whether it is not a training tool when on her because of her being collar smart, i think not for the following reasons...

Although seeing it makes her behaviour improve, she still has taken commands she learnt a year ago when using the collar and applies it now without the collar.

also,

Although my dog knows that the prong collar is a different collar, she still obeys the "slow" command on a flat collar, i taught "slow" to her using the prong collar.

I also taught her a few other commands using the ecollar which she still obeys now when on no collar.

[poodlefan]

I think rather than saying the dog was "line smart", I'd be more inclined to say the exercise wasn't consistently trained, well proofed or practiced with distractions.

If the dog understands that given certain circumstances, it has a choice about whether or not to come, then the fault is in the training.

[Griffo]

I think rather than saying the dog was "line smart", I'd be more inclined to say the exercise wasn't consistently trained, well proofed or practiced with distractions.

If the dog understands that given certain circumstances, it has a choice about whether or not to come, then the fault is in the training.

I don't think it is as simple as that. The dog knows when the line is on that under any circumstance/condition it has to obey, but it also knows that once the line is removed then all bets are off.

To proof your dog you would need to implement the use of an ecollar or very slowly retrain your dog with no line...all over again (at least they'd know the "come" command this time).

Starting in a very low distraction area (your back yard) and then increasing it (your back yard with a food bowl in it, your back yard with a gate open, just outside the gate) ... blah blah blah. Once you have started the training outside of the yard to increase the distraction level, this has its risks, especially depending on how pack driven your dog is.

You would reduce the risk by increasing distractions extremely slowly... but if it was me, i would prefer to progress a bit faster and have the safety of an ecollar.

Edited December 11, 2007 by Rachelle

[MonElite]

Not my dog, and as its a dog that belongs to the ob club I cant recomend the ecollar.