Misdiagnosed Abuse

[Griffo]

Aphra,very very good post!!!! Tony

wonderful post.

[Lablover]

Aphra,very very good post!!!! Tony

Good post especially CONSISTENCY.

Mind you good consistency.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Aphra,very very good post!!!! Tony

wonderful post.

Agreed, that was excellent. Going to print it for my personal training scrapbook.

[BittyMooPeeb]

We see this all the time in rehoming fosters.

There is a great deal of scope for education at the primary or secondary level about how animals think, why they act the way they do etc. Lack of any education about animal behaviour in our society really shows that (at a society level) we still consider them as very unimportant.

People leave school knowing what a monotreme is (but never needing to know!) but with no clue about what the animals they share their daily life with are thinking and experiencing.

[Tonymc]

Bitty,I take my Hat off you!!!!You have said it so well my Friend. Tony

[persephone]

a slight digress...

the reality is that horses have the brain power of a slightly educated raisin, they understand balance and fear and speed and food and pain, and that's about it.

and permission to disagree with above statement

Excellent post, BittyMooPeeb!

[unconditionallove]

What a great post, I have always been so passionate about animals, and ridiculously interested in observing them!

I have always taken animals at face value, that is, i have no expectation of them when i meet them, regardless of their story.

I cant wait to see what they have to offer, even if they only choose to listen to me by turning their ear. I truly celebrate people who think outside of the box and work with an animal regardless of what they "should" or "should'nt" do.

As people we accept and tolerate individuality in each other, yet many do not embrace or offer the same respect to animals.

Great post Tony.

[unconditionallove]

Hmmm.

Perhaps the majority of these dogs have been abused though?

It seems to me that quote from Beth Bradley is more about people letting their dogs get away with things because they have (or have not) been abused. I suspect this dog I am fostering was abused (wary of females, cowers if my belt is not on, runs and hides or cowers in the corner if I have any kind of rope - if I have misdiagnosed then feel free to let me know what it could be) but I certainly won't let it get away with poor behaviour. The thing is until I see a behaviourist I am NOT going to try and fix the things I outlined above. Without professional input I could make things worse, if that makes me a do-gooder then I am happy to be one

Hi LM, There is no doubt that mans best friend is subject to abuse, you are doing the hard yards with your fostered babe, if you have geniuine concern re her behaviour neither of you have nothing to loose by further intervention.

I think what is trying to be expressed here is basic fear aggresion, which is a bit like, Im going to get you, before you get me good luck with your angel.

[Pockets]

I am sorry but I equate Lack of socialisation, poor training, and shoving a dog in the backyard and having nothing to do with it as "Abuse".......Abuse does not have to be just physical.....it can also be emotional and mental...

A dog from the pound may not have been physically abused (hit, kicked or handled roughly etc) but that does not mean it wasnt abused in other ways...

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

I am sorry but I equate Lack of socialisation, poor training, and shoving a dog in the backyard and having nothing to do with it as "Abuse".......Abuse does not have to be just physical.....it can also be emotional and mental...

A dog from the pound may not have been physically abused (hit, kicked or handled roughly etc) but that does not mean it wasnt abused in other ways...

Very good point Ruby & Axel. Neglect is another form of cruelty/abuse. I find this all a bit loaded towards people that rescue as if there's something wrong with doing that.

Tonymc - do you rescue dogs at all?

I have fostered/rescued around 40 or 50 dogs in the last few years, not all have been abused but quite a few have problems that I don't believe they'd have been born with. How do I know that? Well you are right, I don't for sure. But what I do know is that after a certain period of time, certain foster dogs have no longer felt the need to hide under the sofa 24/7 or run away when I move my hands too fast. Those are just a couple of examples. The dogs I'm referring to have ranged in age from 12 months to 10 years.

I strongly object when people suggest I'm a do gooder, it is a derogatory term. I am doing good but I don't see why people feel the need to put you down because of it and I don't do it for the accolades - don't want or need them. If you don't rescue yourself, you'll just have to trust me that there is plenty of hard work and heartache associated with it.

Edited December 18, 2007 by dogmad

[Pockets]

I am sorry but I equate Lack of socialisation, poor training, and shoving a dog in the backyard and having nothing to do with it as "Abuse".......Abuse does not have to be just physical.....it can also be emotional and mental...

A dog from the pound may not have been physically abused (hit, kicked or handled roughly etc) but that does not mean it wasnt abused in other ways...

Very good point Ruby & Axel. Neglect is another form of cruelty/abuse. I find this all a bit loaded towards people that rescue as if there's something wrong with doing that.

Tonymc - do you rescue dogs at all?

I have fostered/rescued around 40 or 50 dogs in the last few years, not all have been abused but quite a few have problems that I don't believe they'd have been born with. How do I know that? Well you are right, I don't for sure. But what I do know is that after a certain period of time, certain foster dogs have no longer felt the need to hide under the sofa 24/7 or run away when I move my hands too fast. Those are just a couple of examples. The dogs I'm referring to have ranged in age from 12 months to 10 years.

I strongly object when people suggest I'm a do gooder.

Yes I thought it was a bit loaded too..

I dont think you are a do gooder at all, there is nothing wrong with rescuing dogs and of course you would know the difference between just a shy dog and one that has obviously suffered from abuse wether it be physical or mental...

Some people just think they are experts on everything

[Tonymc]

Some have to try to turn every topic into a sh-t fight,mud slinging or point scoring exercise.Good ol Human nature and undealt with baggage.

let me straighten a few of the ignorant and assuming out.

Firstly I did not state anywhere that misdiagnosis only happens in rescue.Misdiagnosis can happen in many enviroments including rescue.

Many people do not know the difference between a dog for example that is showing evidence of abuse or a dog that is just acting submissive.Many others apart from me have witnessed these situations.

Dogmad, i really do not care how many dogs anybody has had.The number of dogs somebody has had does not automatically grant that person with a greater knowledge!!!!Having the desire and intellect to be honest with oneself and to want to learn is what brings more knowledge, not just time or numbers.

Dogmad the ironic part about your question"Do I rescue?" firstly again just because a Person rescues it does not grant the Person with more knowledge!!!In rescue I have met some very knowledgeable people and at the other end some real loonies who were using Dogs as way of covering or surpressing their own baggage.

Dogmad, ironically I take and have taken Dogs that no rescue would touch.,Dogs in the bush that were real rank and I mean rank!!!

Ruby, I have never claimed to be an expert but I do know enough not to read things into peoples threads that are not there.Time to have a look at where your coming from yourself if you need to twist contexts to suit yourself. Tony

[unconditionallove]

To begin with, peace, love and happiness to you.

As I’m sure you are all painfully aware, I’m new at this and as I feel like a "sponge here" and have done for some time, forgive me, also, I am happy for anyone to pull me into line if you feel the need!

In terms of your OP Tony, I believe you have a relevant point.

My sister... I cherish all she is, is convinced that their BC was abused or mistreated in formative birth-development, in other words, before they rejoiced in his arrival at 8 weeks. I accept knowing the boy (we adore him) that there is frustration on my part because I do not think that is the case. He is fear aggressive...big men, big dogs, an unpredictable moment in time, this boy has great potential is extremely loyal, and as his experiences grow and develop, he has greater knowledge, he improves.

Ruby and Axel along with Dogmad make very relevant points. Neglect can also be entailed as lack of socialisation, or natural development. A classic example of this in my opinion would be trying to restrict a 'working breed' to a suburban backyard.

The term "Do gooders" what does that represent? Labelling any group of people is simply stereotyping and we all know how destructive that can be... look at the history.

I personally have far greater experience with horses at this point in my life, and have seen many people go into bat for what they believe. Good on them!! In my opinion it keeps people on their toes. I have not agreed with every thought or expression that horse rescue organisations entailed, I have seen firsthand downsides, though I have never disregarded the same. What comes first the chicken or the egg? Abuse vs. disrespect for humans vs. abuse.....

I’ve seen both there is no right or wrong.

12 months ago we adopted an angel, when he arrived in my opinion his spirit was broken. This little bloke did not know how to eat out of his dish; I know this because it remained untouched regardless of his tiny body and the fact that i religiously bought BBQ chicken and roast beef from the deli to tempt him. It was not until I threw it in the bin or out of the back door that he would show interest and eat every morsel...survival skills.

I am happy to say the same boy is now full of life, eats anything we offer from his bowl and is as bold as brass, my husband keeps reminding me that our Mr B is as "fat as a fool"! (mind you our vet doesnt think there is a major issue at this point)

In my opinion rescue workers are truly awesome, they don’t need to justify their actions, they do the hard yards day in day out, no accolades simply being 100% authentic in terms of their beliefs, the joy of seeing a pound babe enjoying life, as they should in a loving home, the refusal to watch a life dismissed simply because of human ignorance and intolerance.

[cavNrott]

Some folk will try to turn posts into a cheap shot psychoanalysis of people they have never met and know nothing at all about.

Tony, I usually find common sense in your posts but it's damned arrogant to accuse people who dare to disagree with you as having undealt with baggage. That's taking a personal shot at people who perhaps think you might have a load of undealt with baggage yourself which may explain why you seem to feel the need to do this at times.

This is a discussion forum. Not everyone must agree with you. Different points of view are what makes this forum a good forum. That's why we're here, we learn all the time. I doubt anyone here claims to know everything about dogs.

My rescue dog was standing behind me, I didn't know she was there and when I turned around my hand accidentally clipped her lightly on the side of her head. She dropped to the ground immediately with her face on the floor.

The fact that her incisors are worn to the gum line and canines less than half the length they should be and that she was skin and bone when she came here certainly indicates she was not well cared for.

I don't know if she was abused previously but she isn't abused here and is now a confident and much loved dog. She's happy, contented and well adjusted. Whatever history she has is behind her is no longer part of her life.

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

Tonymc - I can hardly be bothered to reply to you - I rarely agree with what you post and not just in this topic. But you have taken what I said and twisted it around. I was merely trying to point out that many dogs have most definitely been abused and that I've had a fair few so perhaps I might be able to recognise abuse, particularly as I'm living with the dog.

Some had probably been badly bred, that is for sure and many had never been abused but I would say that it is a sad indictment on our society that so many dogs are abused and, as I said before, I don't just mean battered or kicked but they turn out damaged in one way or another.

The minute you start talking about rescue dogs and do gooders in the area, you are bound to attract attention and potentially upset a few people.

As for you taking "rank" dogs - try picking up a maltese from the pound aged about 5 that has never seen a brush. That's about as rank as they get, I can assure you. I have groomed 1 that took me about 3 hours, he weighed about 3 kilos but was a mass of walking poo dags. Most people would have rejected him because of this probably.

As I said before, the word "do gooder" is a derogatory term. I have found that people who like to throw the term around are often those who are so selfish, they cannot believe that another person would do something for nothing therefore they feel that the "do gooder" has to be getting something out of it for themselves - eg heaps of praise and congratulations from others, therefore making it very worthwhile for them. There may of course be some people out there that this applies to but it isn't any of the people I know that rescue.

Edited December 18, 2007 by dogmad

[RachelleBuck]

I am also the proud owner of a rescue dog. I am not a dog expert and properly will never be. But I don't need to be a "do-gooder" to safely say my boy was abused, neglected and beaten and come to live with me as a very sad dog. This dog is not only hand shy but when you raise you voice at him, as I did the other day when he has a small fight with another dog, he drops to the ground and screams a scream that no dog owner should ever hear, a scream of pure fear and pain. I bet he doesn't do it just for attention. Or is it the large cuts and scares up and down with legs that look a lot like cigarette burns. Or is it the fact that when I walk away from him and he is without anyother dog he whimpers and cries for fear I wont come back or maybe it is the fact he was surrended to the pound, so still has his original name, but it took me two weeks to teach him his name. Or the fact that at 2 years of age he couldn't walk on a lead. I am HAPPY to say my dog was abused, neglected and beaten. Call me what you like be it a do-gooder or dog owner make excuses but I don't really care. You are not the one with him, you don't know and never will. I know one thing for sure, he is better off with me than he was!!!!!!

How dare you pass judgement on me and my boy!!!!

the world needs more people like dogmad that are out there help not sitting at their computers trying to tell everyone what to think

Edited December 19, 2007 by RachelleBuck

[Cosmolo]

I used to be very involved in horses, had an extremely difficult horse and used to rack my brain- trying to think of what must have happened to him before.

A more experienced friend said to me at the time that it doesn't make a great deal of difference what happened to him before- you have him as he is now and we work with what we've got and try to make things better.

There are many dogs that i see where their history is unknown, and we can guess (educated as it may be, it is still a guess) that they may or may not have been abused. At times we will be right and at times we might be wrong- but it doesn't change the fact that the dog now has a particular problem that needs resolution. That will always be my focus- even with one of my own dogs who was the most extreme fear case i have seen.

[Vickie]

I used to be very involved in horses, had an extremely difficult horse and used to rack my brain- trying to think of what must have happened to him before.

A more experienced friend said to me at the time that it doesn't make a great deal of difference what happened to him before- you have him as he is now and we work with what we've got and try to make things better.

There are many dogs that i see where their history is unknown, and we can guess (educated as it may be, it is still a guess) that they may or may not have been abused. At times we will be right and at times we might be wrong- but it doesn't change the fact that the dog now has a particular problem that needs resolution. That will always be my focus- even with one of my own dogs who was the most extreme fear case i have seen.

Great post Cosmolo!

What a shame some people have to get so defensive & ruin an educational thread. What can't people take it for what it is? I never seem to see the invisible "All people" and "all dogs" that everyone else seems to read into threads like this.

I read this when it was first posted & certainly agree with the suggestion that not all dogs who have been labelled as having an abusive past actually had one. And that's all it is - a suggestion. I found at least the first page very interesting & informative. Something designed to make us think & be aware of in our own interactions with people & dogs. There is no doubt that this mislabelling does happen & that some of the people involved may be do-gooders. Doesn't mean it's you!

The fact is sometimes abuse is clear & sometimes it's not, but we don't always know. I have had all my dogs since pups and obviously none of them have been abused. I reckon you could beat one of them every day for a week & she'd still lick to you death at the end of it, another one would take a week to not flinch if you accidentally stood on his tail. That's just the way they are. If they had led different lives, people would be probably be inaccurate in their diagnosis if they were rehomed.

I also have a friend with a rescue dog who tells everyone the dog was abused & gives him special treatment for it. It has occurred to me in the past that it suits my friend to believe this as it excuses her treating him like a baby and that if this dog was not mollycoddled so much he'd be a lot better off. She is exactly the sort of person that this thread is talking about. Doesn't make her a bad person & she loves her dog, but she really could improve his insecurities if she lived in teh futre & not the past.

I also know a dog that everyone thinks is being abused by his owner as he is a cringy dog. I don't think he is being abused, I think it's just the way he is.

Who knows?

[RachelleBuck]

I agree with Cosmolo in that we have to work with what we have. I don't make excuses from my dog and I never will but I don't like being called a do-gooder because I believe my dog has been abused. People make all excuses for their dogs misbehaving and not at least that the dog has been abused. Maybe if this thread was about all the excuses people make for their dogs and not just labelling people that say their dogs have been abused as do - gooders this thread may have gone another way. I also have a dog that has extreme dog fear agression, I don't make excuses I work to fix our problems. She has never been abused and I will never claim she has been. I take the looks I get from people at dog school when she has one of her out busts but I will not be labelled a do-gooder for saying my other dog has been abused. This thread is not educational but a mud slinging match.

[Tonymc]

The way this thread has gone unfortunately tells a story about where some people are coming from.

Notice to the People regularily posting in here how we all get along,have healthy discussion and can openly debate matters all putting our own views across while respecting other people.Sadly it seems not everybody shares our way of healthy discussion.

I am sick of this "It has to be about me " mentality whenever anything is posted!!!To those who see everything as being about them, go away and grow up!!!!!

I ask to those who immaturely took it as about them,did I specifically name you?No of course not, so again grow up

Why do People take things as it has to be about them?

People do so in some cases because,they know they are carrying out practises a post may describe.This of course touches upon the Truth and to some the truth is to be avoided at all times.

Another reason of course is some use a post for attention seeking.Some will of course insist the post is about them as in their mind, that gives them license to throw mud,cause trouble and bring attention to themselves.Some poor characters need attention and do not care how they get it!!!!!

Lastly immature emotional development within People causes the belief within that everything has to be about them!!!Its an extension of a Child before he or she forms their own Identity and they are still at the stage where they see the World and themselves as one.Hence the belief that everything is about them.

Now all those who immaturely took this as being about them this is what you do.Go back to the very start of the thread and read very slowly and carefully and note that nobody was named at all!!!!!!And lastly wake up!!!!!! Tony