Always Wanting To Walk In Front

[jaybeece]

My boy's always been a challenge to keep at a heel on walks, but for the most part he's pretty good. Add another dog to the walk however and he WILL NOT stay by my side if the other dog is in front, he always wants to be out front and is very hard to heel.

I'm possibly going to start fostering greyhounds soon, depending on how well the meet and greet goes, and if I walk them together (still undecided) this is probably going to turn into a right pain in the butt.

I'm 99% sure he likes being out front because he wants to be top dog and calling the shots, but I don't want him to be doing that because it's not his place to be doing it. We've always done NILIF, he always has to sit at roads and perform random obedience work on walks so I'm not sure what else I can do. Admittedly I have been a little soft on him at home lately (which is changing now), but this has always been a problem even when I've been strict with him.

At dog school he's very good- I nearly always let all the other dogs go first before we start off heeling and no problem there. I guess the different environment makes all the difference.

So does anyone have any ideas on what I can do to work on this? Will it be a case of just more or less teaching him heel all over again when another dog is around on a walk just to make sure he really gets it?

[Tonymc]

Jaybeece,you have answered your own question.You state.he wants to be top Dog.You also mention you have to quote you,been a bit soft lately.Inorder for Dogs to be consistent,we have to be consistent.

Have a check of your leadership.Many times we may think we are employing good leadership, but it may not come across to the Dog in that way.An example is Merriment"s post in this section.

When your talking about another Dog are you meaning in the context of you walking two Dogs at the same time? Tony

[jaybeece]

Jaybeece,you have answered your own question.You state.he wants to be top Dog.You also mention you have to quote you,been a bit soft lately.Inorder for Dogs to be consistent,we have to be consistent.

Have a check of your leadership.Many times we may think we are employing good leadership, but it may not come across to the Dog in that way.An example is Merriment"s post in this section.

Absolutely agree with you Tony which is why I noticed I'd been a bit soft on him. I'm still a lot stricter than anyone else I know, but this dog does need very firm leadership. I'm brushing up on it in preparation for having another dog around as I want things to go smoothly.

Thing is that he's always been like this, even when I was very strict and consistent with him. The biggest problem I'm facing is that he's a different dog out on the street and it's difficult to reinforce leadership out there. I run through obedience, make him sit at roads and work on focus but it doesn't seem to make an impact at all. In the house he's absolutely fine, no problems with me or the cats and he'll happily follow behind me.

When your talking about another Dog are you meaning in the context of you walking two Dogs at the same time? Tony

Yep I'm still undecided about walking them together as my boy is dog aggressive and I don't want to have to train him while having another dog to worry about. But at some point chances are good that I'll have to walk them together, even if it's only to the car, etc.

Edited December 8, 2007 by jaybeece

[Rom]

This is an area of great interest to me.

On the one hand we have the leadership issues that we need to enforce to help our dogs have a healthy and balanced life, on the other there is some recognition that for a dog to have a healthy and balanced life, they need the freedom to express their natural drives in a mutually acceptable way. It is also recognised that prevention of expression of those drives can build frustration in the dog which can bleed over into unwanted behaviours and conversely, satisfaction of those drives leads to a calmer more balanced dog.

There is a point where these two concepts seem to clash in relation to 'walking the dog'. If a dog was making its own way from point a to point b, it would ordinarily travel at a lope or trot. For many dogs the speed at which they'd travel in their natural gait is at least twice the speed of their human handler.

So does it always mean that a dog that walks out ahead is challenging leadership status? Or is it just reacting to an instinctive drive to travel at a faster pace? Does preventing a dog that already has behavioural problems from travelling at a pace that seems more natural to it increase its frustration and therefore its aggressive reactivity?

One of the reasons that people walk dogs, particularly those who own dogs that live in suburban backyards, is to increase the dogs physical and mental stimulation. Yet soemtimes I wonder if a walk is a pseudo stimulation exercise in that the dog gets exposed to all the stimuli, but isn't allowed to interact with that stimuli. It would kinda be like putting an open cheque for a million dollars in front of me and then telling me that although it is there for anyone who wants it, I can't have it. I'm sure that I would not feel very calm and balanced about that

So, what is the answer? Is there a middle ground where both the needs of leadership can be enforced and where the dog gets optimum physical and mental stimulation within the bounds of being on lead?

The above is why I believe that as well as teaching a dog to heel, for the benefit of the dog, it should also be taught a command that allows it to do anything it likes within the bounds of being on lead so long as it adheres to socially acceptible canine good manners and it doesn't pull on the lead. This way we can still set boundaries as leaders, the behaviour is only allowed at our say so, the dog can get optimum physical and mental stimulation within the bounds of being on lead, and we can still call the dog to heel and enforce it where circumstances or the environment warrant.

I can see so many benefits for dogs in the above that I'd love to see more obedience clubs teach these skills to their members....but I have a hard time convincing obedience people of the value of such an exercise.....

I accept though that it might be difficult if you're in the position where you have to walk two or more dogs at once.

[jaybeece]

Great post Rom, I've thought about this issue too as I want to make sure walks are fun, not just a chore

I think you've got a good point about repressing a dog's needs leading to aggression, which is one of the reasons I've given this a lot of thought as I'm always trying to improve how I handle him. The more relaxed he is, the less he's prone to aggression. If he's had a good sniff and pee on stuff then his demeanour is different compared to when he's done a lot of heeling on a walk.

At the same time I do like to have him heel for part of the walk to reinforce it in a different environment to dog school and also because it seems to help remind him not to pull as he used to be a nightmare to walk. There are also times when he definitely needs to be heeling, like when we're at the shops or near another dog. He gets time on his long lead at the local school too (very dog and people free so it's brilliant) so he's getting a fair amount of freedom, even if he is still on the lead.

Even if I'm taking him out with the bike he still wants to be ahead of me, so I don't think it has anything to do with the pace unfortunately.

Edited December 8, 2007 by jaybeece

[Erny]

Generally speaking I don't mind where the dog walks (assuming he is in "release mode" ie not in "heel"), so long as I can tell that he hasn't forgotten that I'm at the other end of the lead.

[Rom]

So maybe its not just the pace but also the sniffing?

[Janba]

I don't try to make my dogs heel when I am walking them but work on the principal that they are allowed to go to the end of the lead and I don't care what they do within reason BUT they are not allowed to pull. I adjust the length of the lead for the situation, so if it is 6ft they can go 6 ft from me, if it is 1 ft thats all they can go. I also don't let them mark every tree or stop to sniff fore too long, but a walk is for their enjoyment not a formal obedience lesson. They do compete if I have all 3 together, but I usually only have them together going to the car.

Seems to work most of the time with the older 2, but the pup has relapses. My older BC is capable of arriving at training and bouncing in the air and walking on his hind legs in excitement without putting pressure on the lead. ;)

Edited December 8, 2007 by Janba

[Scarlet]

This is what I do.

Generally on a walk I (aim to! ) keep my dogs at my side but we have a stretch near home where I walk through a park. I always let them have full stretch of the lead and they can walk where they want - I follow them. They sniff and wee wherever they want. I only let them do this at this park and they know it.

I decide when we leave and then they have to walk beside me again.

[Erny]

Even if I'm taking him out with the bike he still wants to be ahead of me, so I don't think it has anything to do with the pace unfortunately.

Do you think that it is possible that he's learnt (through your training) to not be ahead when you are 1:1 with him, but that when you're with two dogs and when you're on the bike, your "training" does not occur, hence the difference?

[jaybeece]

Even if I'm taking him out with the bike he still wants to be ahead of me, so I don't think it has anything to do with the pace unfortunately.

Do you think that it is possible that he's learnt (through your training) to not be ahead when you are 1:1 with him, but that when you're with two dogs and when you're on the bike, your "training" does not occur, hence the difference?

I think that's probably a big part of it Erny, so I'll concentrate on re-teaching him to heel under these circumstances. Might be able to persuade my boyfriend to take the other dog while I walk behind with mine and work on it ;)

[Erny]

If you don't want your dogs out in front of you ever, you can achieve this training even in release mode. Simply do a quick about turn every time your dog moves out in front. Praise and keep moving forward when your dog is level with you. In this way, you can still walk your dogs and allow them to sniff and take in the 'news' of their environment, rather than always heeling where they are not permitted this liberty.

[Lablover]

My boy's always been a challenge to keep at a heel on walks, but for the most part he's pretty good. Add another dog to the walk however and he WILL NOT stay by my side if the other dog is in front, he always wants to be out front and is very hard to heel.

Pretty good??? Not good enough, 100% is required.......or at least 99%.

[jaybeece]

My boy's always been a challenge to keep at a heel on walks, but for the most part he's pretty good. Add another dog to the walk however and he WILL NOT stay by my side if the other dog is in front, he always wants to be out front and is very hard to heel.

Pretty good??? Not good enough, 100% is required.......or at least 99%.

Well we're always working on it, but I don't think he'll ever have a perfect heel on the street though, there's just too many interesting things I can actually see him holding back though so he really does want to do the right thing, it's just a battle of "Cool thing to pee on!!! OMG!!! Oh, crap, gotta stay in a heel"

I don't need it to be perfect anyway, I just don't want him to try to get in front of other dogs if we're walking with them as he breaks the heel significantly and will sometimes pull.

At obedience, around the house and in enclosed environments (ie other people's gardens) he's a right little angel about heeling, it's almost sickening. If he didn't have his aggression problems we would have been doing offlead obedience over a year ago *sigh*

[jaybeece]

If you don't want your dogs out in front of you ever, you can achieve this training even in release mode. Simply do a quick about turn every time your dog moves out in front. Praise and keep moving forward when your dog is level with you. In this way, you can still walk your dogs and allow them to sniff and take in the 'news' of their environment, rather than always heeling where they are not permitted this liberty.

I missed this before, but that's a great idea that I never thought of before...thanks! When he's released he's always gone out in front straight away and I'd much prefer him to be next to me or behind. This will give us something else to work on

[ShellyBeggs]

I walk both my dogs together.....and we walk on a release. I used to try and get them to heel but that seemed to engage their drive and the race was on who could be in front. While walking on release they don't seem to compete with each other and are happy to sniff and look around rather than race.

They can walk where ever they like as long as they do not pull the lead. If they pull I stop....they are not getting there any fast by pulling.

When I stop the usually stop and look back....take a few steps towards me and when they do we walk off again.

It only took 2 days for them to work out that pulling = stopping and I must say they are very good at using the length of the lead (without pulling) to maximum advantage.

It must look like there is no control with dogs crisscrossing sniffing and not in heel.......but in fact I feel I have more control as we are all relaxed and they are not competing with me trying to force the heel. They are also more eager to listen if I tell them to sit or come etc.....

I also find walking a bit faster......keeping them moving a bit faster helps stop the pulling too.

next we are graduating to a bike....

[jaybeece]

Thought I'd post a followup...

I took him for a short walk with a greyhound while she was with us for a couple of hours for a meet & greet on Saturday and he was bloody perfect The grey girl walked out in front of him while he heeled beautifully next to me. He's such a bloody suckup :D

Now fingers crossed that we get to foster her, just depends on the folks who arrange it and how comfortable they are about the situation. He had a couple of outbursts at her (while wearing a muzzle), but had calmed down by the time she left and seemed to be getting the hang of having another dog in the house. I think given a couple of days he'd be playing with her and having a ball

Edited December 16, 2007 by jaybeece