Drive Theory Flawed?

[Lablover]

Excerpt from Excel-erated learning by Pamela J Reid

Motivation

"As I have mentioned several times, motivation is one factor which influences whether or not a learned behaviour will be performed. As trainers, we need to be well versed in the science of motiviation as well as the science of learning theory because we can also manipulate the motivation of our animals. Motivation is like the gasoline in your car - without it, your car can't go anywhere. The car may be functioning perfectly but it needs "juice" to display it. Motivation is used to describe the forces which act on or within an animal to activate and direct behavior.

A concept that you may be familiar with is the drive theory of motivation. Several top trainers have adapted drive theory to explain why some dogs react to training differently. The idea behind drive theory is that each individual animal comes genetically "equiped" with varying levels of energy for different drives. The dog might possess a particuarly strong "prey" drive, which means that he is highly likely to engage in predatory behavior extremely rewarding. Thus, the dog is highly motivated to reduce the need resutling from this drive state. According to drive theory, behavior is a result of both what has been learned and what is activated by the current drive level. If the dog is primarily activated by his hunger drive, he will engage in food-getting behaviors, particuarly behaviors he has learned are related to obtaining food. If my dog is primarily activated by his prey drive, he will engage in predatory behaviors ,such as stalking, chasing, biting, and so on. If my dog is activated by his "pack" drive, he will engage in social behaviors, such as nuzzling, grooming, etc.

In the psychological literature, drive theory as an explanation for motivation has gone out of fashion because FEW OF THE THEORETICAL PREDICTIONS WERE SUBSTANTIATED EXPERIMENTALLY. It is useful, from a dog trainer's standpoint, as a mean for developing effective reinforcers for a specific dog and for identifying how a specific dog is likely to react to a given situation (in order words, what unconditioned responses are likely to be elicited by a training scenario). Otherwise, I feel the theory's value is pretty limited.

The main point to understand is that the relationship between learning and motivation is so entwined that it is difficult to conceive of one without the other. For the most part, learign does not occur without motivation. Once a behavior has been learned, it may not be performed if the animal is not motivated to respond. In any training situation, you must consider the motivational state of the animal as well as the learning contingencies. You must also consider competing motivations. You may have a hungry dog that has acquired the response of coming when called in order to earn a food rewardd, but if the dog is loose and there are squirrels to be chased, you may not see the fruits of your training labours."

Thankyou, my friend Fiona for typing the above. Hopefuly not too many typing mistakes.

Thoughts??????????

PS Sometimes I think I am cheating having highly motivated working labradors to retrieve. Keep an open mind, has been said to be my strongest gift.

[MonElite]

Very interesting approach.

Can you tell us who is she how sucessfull is she and a bit more about this

FEW OF THE THEORETICAL PREDICTIONS WERE SUBSTANTIATED EXPERIMENTALLY

[Lablover]

Myszka, I have never met her, simply read her book.

Pam J Reid earned her Ph.D in Psychology from the University of Toronto, where she specialized in animal learning, behaviour and cognition.

Of course reading the book in full has better value.

I always go back to basics, instinct is a wonderful thing, heck.........the way newborn born pups locating teats being one. The instinct to retrieve another, which I obviously enjoy, as do my labs. Then of course to train them for retrieving trials, where the criteria is sometimes contrary. Stop go, stop go, stop go.

Edited December 6, 2007 by Lablover

[Rom]

I'm finding the above a little confusing.....I think that both motivation and drive are reliant on each other and the intensity of each can be changed by manipulation of the other.....I'm having trouble understanding how you can separate the two?

LL, does the author give a definition of each?

ETA: I guess I'm finding it confusing because I'm considering this definition: Drive is an instinctive motivation. So I wonder if the author is discussing extrinsic motivation rather than intrinsic motivation?

ETA again:

I think maybe I'm on the right track after another read through:

You must also consider competing motivations. You may have a hungry dog that has acquired the response of coming when called in order to earn a food rewardd, but if the dog is loose and there are squirrels to be chased, you may not see the fruits of your training labours.

I might be drawing a long bow here, but to me the above suggests that the dog has been trained to come for a food reward, but that does not mean that food is that dogs primary motivator particularly if he chooses chasing squirrels over earning a food reward even though he is hungry. In this instance, the dogs primary motivator is prey drive satisfaction.

I wonder if the author has a complete understanding of drive theory?

Edited December 6, 2007 by Rom

[dogdude]

I couldn't understand that example either ROM, it has been discussed before on this forum about Prey drive more often than not will over ride most other drives depending on the dog.

You have to work with what the dog offers with the most vigour from my understanding. Her example seems to highlight that drive really isn't floored (if you are using the right one in your training!) If she was using prey drive, there would be no need to chase the squirrel.

If the dog in the example's food drive was what it lived for, again, the squirrel wouldn't matter (unless he prefers eating squirrels to what you are using for motivation)

[Tonymc]

I think she does not have a full grasp of the situation herself.Perhaps the whole book might have more appropriate information?The excerpt above is missing the point on many basics.

Lablover,your not cheating,your just using commonsense.No matter whether a Dog or Horse, if I am going to compete in an activity I will seek out a line that have the strongest drive inrelation. Tony

[MonElite]

but the stongest drive in any dog is defence/survival

[dogdude]

Yes, but we dont use it to train our dogs.............only our kids! :laugh:

Edited December 7, 2007 by dogdude

[kelpiechick]

Very interesting approach.

Can you tell us who is she how sucessfull is she and a bit more about this

She is one of the top agility handlers in Canada and runs a fantastic crossbreed called 'Eejit'.

(Haven't read her book tho')

[NaturallyWild]

Very interesting approach.

Can you tell us who is she how sucessfull is she and a bit more about this

She is one of the top agility handlers in Canada and runs a fantastic crossbreed called 'Eejit'.

(Haven't read her book tho')

She is also involved in running the Chicago SPCA (or was) and is also involved with one of the universities in or around chicago doing research on animal cognition (particularly canine).

LL - that quote from her book has me a little confused with what she is getting at - will have to read it properly when i have time (or when i get my book back ). I met her when i was in the states last year and she seemed pretty switched on.

[Arya]

Excerpt from Excel-erated learning by Pamela J Reid

Motivation

"As I have mentioned several times, motivation is one factor which influences whether or not a learned behaviour will be performed. As trainers, we need to be well versed in the science of motiviation as well as the science of learning theory because we can also manipulate the motivation of our animals. Motivation is like the gasoline in your car - without it, your car can't go anywhere. The car may be functioning perfectly but it needs "juice" to display it. Motivation is used to describe the forces which act on or within an animal to activate and direct behavior.

A concept that you may be familiar with is the drive theory of motivation. Several top trainers have adapted drive theory to explain why some dogs react to training differently. The idea behind drive theory is that each individual animal comes genetically "equiped" with varying levels of energy for different drives. The dog might possess a particuarly strong "prey" drive, which means that he is highly likely to engage in predatory behavior extremely rewarding. Thus, the dog is highly motivated to reduce the need resutling from this drive state. According to drive theory, behavior is a result of both what has been learned and what is activated by the current drive level. If the dog is primarily activated by his hunger drive, he will engage in food-getting behaviors, particuarly behaviors he has learned are related to obtaining food. If my dog is primarily activated by his prey drive, he will engage in predatory behaviors ,such as stalking, chasing, biting, and so on. If my dog is activated by his "pack" drive, he will engage in social behaviors, such as nuzzling, grooming, etc.

In the psychological literature, drive theory as an explanation for motivation has gone out of fashion because FEW OF THE THEORETICAL PREDICTIONS WERE SUBSTANTIATED EXPERIMENTALLY. It is useful, from a dog trainer's standpoint, as a mean for developing effective reinforcers for a specific dog and for identifying how a specific dog is likely to react to a given situation (in order words, what unconditioned responses are likely to be elicited by a training scenario). Otherwise, I feel the theory's value is pretty limited.

The main point to understand is that the relationship between learning and motivation is so entwined that it is difficult to conceive of one without the other. For the most part, learign does not occur without motivation. Once a behavior has been learned, it may not be performed if the animal is not motivated to respond. In any training situation, you must consider the motivational state of the animal as well as the learning contingencies. You must also consider competing motivations. You may have a hungry dog that has acquired the response of coming when called in order to earn a food rewardd, but if the dog is loose and there are squirrels to be chased, you may not see the fruits of your training labours."

Thankyou, my friend Fiona for typing the above. Hopefuly not too many typing mistakes.

Thoughts??????????

PS Sometimes I think I am cheating having highly motivated working labradors to retrieve. Keep an open mind, has been said to be my strongest gift.

Okay, hope I am understanding what you have typed okay!!! this is an area that interests me greatly and I love playing around with drive when working my dog, turning it up and down, watching the physiological reactions within the dog take place, like body tensing, pupils dilating. I would like to see how these drive theories have supposedly been disproved. Here is my take on it:

Drive = survival, whatever drive the dog is working in. The predatory drive sequence is: Sensing prey thru sight/smell/hearing. Sighting prey. Chasing prey. Killing prey. Devouring prey. Each part of this sequence utilises different part of the brain, different brain chemicals coming into play. The motivation behind it ALL though, is survival. This goes for pack drive too, which could be said to fall before and after the predatory drive sequence. And not to forget retrieval or defence drive as tools too. All we do as motivational trainers is manipulate the natural behaviours/amplify or suppress, to suit ourselves. It could be argued that even compulsion training is simply a form of pack drive training - higher order dog suppressing lower order dog. Get me? But to get back to motivational training. The drive theory, as far as I am concerned, works as a motivational training tool hands down, when used correctly, whichever part of the sequence you choose. Things I have observed in my own and other dogs:

Chase/kill drive will override food and pack drive every time, in a dog with these drives well developed. Could this be because of the chemicals being released? Endorphins to suppress fear and pain during the chase and kill? I think so. A well developed chase/kill drive dog (so a dog that loves to chase a ball/hose, or tug a tug toy, dummy, hose) will do so until it drops. Not so a food motivated dog. But that's not to say a highly motivated, hungry dog won't work just as well for food.

Anyway, enough of my ramblings. As I say, a topic that fascinates me. How can we apply this back to other animals I often wonder? Even ourselves!

But to answer the original question. I think the drive theory of motivational training stands up every time. The only time it would fail is if the wrong drive for the dog is being used as a tool - for example, a food driven dog with little chase/kill drive trying to train it with a bite roll or hose. Or vice-versa.

Phew! Great topic

Edited December 7, 2007 by Arya

[Rom]

Wot Arya said.

One question though:

Endorphins to suppress fear and pain during the chase and kill?

Isn't it adrenalin that blocks fear, pain, and the ability to record memories and then the endorphins kick in after the catch to form part of the reward for the behaviour?

[Lablover]

I think my reason for this thread was not made clear, for which I apologise. Unfortunately I am short on time, but will return after the weekend.

May I add quickly, I am very happy with using motivational techniques. Frankly one of my exports to the US, who returned as a stressed worker, with severe panic attacks, whose road to resolution, would never have been able to reach the standards achieved so far, without looking outside my square. ie this dog when stopped on a whistle used to crawl back on his stomach even at long distances - 150 yards (dont worry when I saw THAT behaviour I changed to shorter distances, quick smart).

When I was his panic/stress, by close observation 24 hours per day, his confidence was reattained.

A few of you have seen him at Obedience training. His focus is outstanding on his reward toy. The world could crash around him, and he would not care.

I will be back. I promise, dinner party to organise.

[Steve K9Pro]

LL: May I add quickly, I am very happy with using motivational techniques. Frankly one of my exports to the US, who returned as a stressed worker, with severe panic attacks, whose road to resolution, would never have been able to reach the standards achieved so far, without looking outside my square. ie this dog when stopped on a whistle used to crawl back on his stomach even at long distances - 150 yards (dont worry when I saw THAT behaviour I changed to shorter distances, quick smart).

When I was his panic/stress, by close observation 24 hours per day, his confidence was reattained.

A few of you have seen him at Obedience training. His focus is outstanding on his reward toy. The world could crash around him, and he would not care.

K9: which puppy is this LL?

[Sardog]

K9:

This is "Yo", LL bred him and sent him OS.

Me thinks he may be a "SOS" - of course that would make him the 2nd best SOS.

[Arya]

Wot Arya said.

One question though:

Endorphins to suppress fear and pain during the chase and kill?

Isn't it adrenalin that blocks fear, pain, and the ability to record memories and then the endorphins kick in after the catch to form part of the reward for the behaviour?

Yep Rom, this is the standard explanation and wrongly worded by me. Indeed, adrenalin is the major initial pain blocker. I don't think it (and I have no research whatsoever to back this up so just theorising here lol) is the full picture though. In humans anyway, from what I read, adrenalin causes increase in heart rate, shunts blood out to extremities, muscle contraction, everything needed for fast movement for fight, flight, chase, fearlessness, whatever. BUT, where does it say you get an autonomic nervous system response like pupil dilation? Just the thought of the chase provides a huge kick to drivey dogs. Just the switch on word. It turns them on! So my bet is endorphins play a big part too, not just adrenalin. Think about childbirth. Would be excruciating without endorphins to block the pain. That's not adrenalin, that's endorphins. It's so complex and I don't even begin to pretend to understand it all by any means as I'm no scientist! But I'm just going on my behavioural observations with dogs and their reactions. I love learning this stuff and trying it out on the dogs to see what happens and how we can use it in training to get the responses we need in a nice way. What do you think? Am I talking crap

[Rom]

Lurve learning it too!

As to whether or not you're talking crap, I can't call that one way or the other cuz I don't know enough to However, until reading the above I wasn't aware that endorphins also had a pain blocking function....cheers for that! Another thing for me to ponder when I'm observing dogs.

I could be wrong, and I'm working on my memories of high school biology here so stand to be corrected, but I vaguely remember that adrenalin causes dilation of the pupils? It makes sense to me cuz if you wanted to prepare the body for fight or flight then one of the things that you'd want to ensure is that eye sight was at its optimum. Having said that, high school biology was over 20 years ago for me so perhaps more/different info has come to light since then?