Training Style For Potential Obedience/agi Dog

[BelgianPup]

I'm getting a Belgian Pup for xmas. I would like to do competitive obedience and agility in the future. I thought I had a basic understanding of how to train a dog effectively but the more I read the more confused I become! (I'm not a first time dog owner... just a first time puppy owner with no experience in competitive comp/agi training)

I assumed that I would go with reward based training but have read a few things (here and elsewhere) suggesting that 'drive training' would be far better for a dog intended to work at comp level. Part of my problem is that terms seem to mean different things to different people! Are reward training and drive training mutually exclusive? Are they the same thing? Where does positive/negative/balanced fit in? Are training methods used for a family pet deferent to those used for competition dogs?

I know this has been a controversial topic... IN a nut shell what are the different training styles - pros and cons and what would be best for a comp Ob/agi dog? (I realise that a lot depends on the dog's personality etc am looking for general info.)

EDIT: Thank you everyone for the advice! Tis most useful. What exactly is the difference between methods used to train a 'pet' and those used to train a competition dog (obedience/agi)? If I am with a club that trains CCD, CD, CDX, UD, UDX (I understand that many clubs train to CCD standard but not necessarily with a view to trialling) surely the standard required to meet those levels would be sufficent for successful competition?

Thanks in advance.... :rolleyes:

Edited December 6, 2007 by BelgianPup

[Kavik]

IMO the most important thing is to find what your dog finds the most rewarding

If your dog likes chasing moving objects, squeakies, balls, tugs, then you can utilise this in your training - training in prey drive and using them as motivators.

If your dog goes crazy for food rewards, you can use them in your training by using them as rewards. You can use any combination of motivators, including pats and praise as well, access to preferred areas, people, other dogs, etc.

For competition (not that I'm quite there yet :rolleyes: ) you want precision, control and desire. You want to keep the excitement there. Try to find a trainer or club that helps keep the excitement, and doesn't become too boring with the same exercises. It helps if they are flexible to allow for different approaches (I am sure my club thinks I am quite mad I have tried a few interesting things such as spitting food)

[bridgie_cat]

Certainly it is what works for the individual DOG...

BUT - I also think it is alot to do with what the TRAINER is comfortable with/good at etc... most of the training methods work, some better than others perhaps - but at the end of the day it needs to be something you enjoy, understand (and/or actually believe works!) and are willing to do lots of!

Bridget

[Vickie]

I think the hardest thing about starting out is wanting to do "it" right before you are exactly sure what "it" is for competition training.

I am just starting training with my 4th competitive agility dog & still trying to improve each time. I am constantly revising & perfecting methods & still have a ways to go yet. My goals are high & rocking up to a club once a week, regardless of methods used there, is not really going to be enough to achieve the standard I am aiming for. For me in agility it is 50/50. Half is how I train my dogs & the other half is how good I am at handling them.

What I always tell people to do is go watch as much training & competition as you can. Over time you will see a pattern emerging in dogs & handlers whose style you are attracted to. You will find the most successful competitors are the most consistent trainers. They have a method that works & a plan to make sure everything is on track. Agility people are very approachable (especially when you are admiring them as a team ). My advice is to spend time talking to these people, finding out where & how they train. The will have rules that they follow & established motivators & methods for communicating right & wrong to their dogs.

I don't use food much, because my dogs are more motivated by toys & I find them easier to use in training. Saying that, I don't consider my training or anyone else I know in agility in NSW to do formal "training in drive" as it has been explained on this forum. If my next dog was more motivated by food, I would probably use it, but my aim would be to increase the value of toys in training. I don't think there is much room for any kind of punishment in agility. I would occasionally use a NRM, but only on certain dogs & only once I was confident I had taught a behaviour correctly. There are lots of non-confident & slow paced dogs running agility, many of them have been corrected verbally after inconsistent training or handling. Since the dogs get different responses for the same thing, they decide the best thing to do is to go carefully, just in case it is wrong. I don't think this is EVER fair to the dog, but very hard for Novice (and sometimes not so novice handlers) to avoid.

LOL, not sure if I have really answered your question, but I hope this all helps.

Vickie

ETA: I know nothing about comp. obedience :rolleyes: obviously so my comments are purely agility based.

Edited December 5, 2007 by Vickie

[dogdude]

Hi BelgianPup

Food training can also be drive training. Dogs can have a more powerful food drive than they do prey drive, and visa versa. All dogs are different. There is a huge difference in rewarding/paying your dog with food, as opposed to training using food drive!

If you really want to handle a top obedience dog, go to a trial and find a team that stands out like no other..........introduce yourself........and pick their brains. Many of the elite trialling teams dont train their dogs much at a club, because most of what goes on at clubs are detrimental to what they themselves are trying to acheive.

Clubs are aimed at pet owners first, then some clubs go on to promote trialling in the higher classes, where you will then go about having to practically reteach everthing to have a top scoring trialling dog.

If you want to be a fair dinkum trialler, find one to replicate, then branch out with your own ideas. You will get there much faster.

IMO Drive is the key ingredient for dogs that score highly. There are many types of drive to choose from. Your dog will let you know, but as you are planning on "baking one", a pm to K9 would be a good starting point.

ETA Vickie beat me to the mentoring point ("flick flack"..... two trainers agree on something) Slow typer im afraid

Edited December 5, 2007 by dogdude

[BelgianPup]

Thank you all. The advice has been very helpful! I'm looking forward to heading out to comps and checking out dogs and handlers :rolleyes: Could anyone recommend an Obedience club in eastern/sth eastern Melb, Vic that does comp Ob/agi?

[Cosmolo]

There are quite a few available but while you are waiting for your pup and/ or before you choose somewhere, i would go and have a look at some of the different options available. We do agility and obedience for instance but run things very differently to a VCA club like Southern or Moorabbin (both in south eastern suburbs)

I would also consider seeking out a really good puppy school- even if you then have to go somewhere else for the trialling training. You need to make sure whoever is handling your pups critical period (6-16 weeks) really knows what they are doing and remember that different trainers/ clubs may be best for different things. Of course, as has been mentioned, alot will depend on your pups temperament as to the training you choose- you can't train with food rewards if your dog doesn't care about food for example!

[JulesP]

Croydon is a very good club. We have lots of good instructors in the trial class. I've gone through the levels a couple of times there and can't say I have had to change much once hitting the trial class. Just a matter of tidying things up. They do agility as well and flyball.

[Staff'n'Toller]

Berwick is South East and I think you would find it suits your needs. Obedience, Agility, Flyball, Obedience Rings for later on in your training.

They are crossing over to a much more positive style of training, and nearly every time I go there, I see new exercises that they are adopting for use in their classes.

Mel.

[Arya]

I'm getting a Belgian Pup for xmas. I would like to do competitive obedience and agility in the future. I thought I had a basic understanding of how to train a dog effectively but the more I read the more confused I become! (I'm not a first time dog owner... just a first time puppy owner with no experience in competitive comp/agi training)

I assumed that I would go with reward based training but have read a few things (here and elsewhere) suggesting that 'drive training' would be far better for a dog intended to work at comp level. Part of my problem is that terms seem to mean different things to different people! Are reward training and drive training mutually exclusive? Are they the same thing? Where does positive/negative/balanced fit in? Are training methods used for a family pet deferent to those used for competition dogs?

I know this has been a controversial topic... IN a nut shell what are the different training styles - pros and cons and what would be best for a comp Ob/agi dog? (I realise that a lot depends on the dog's personality etc am looking for general info.)

EDIT: Thank you everyone for the advice! Tis most useful. What exactly is the difference between methods used to train a 'pet' and those used to train a competition dog (obedience/agi)? If I am with a club that trains CCD, CD, CDX, UD, UDX (I understand that many clubs train to CCD standard but not necessarily with a view to trialling) surely the standard required to meet those levels would be sufficent for successful competition?

Thanks in advance....

OOOH, A BELGIAN PUP! Nice one! Lucky Listen, I haven't read all the posts here but as far as I'm concerned drive training is the biggest reward based training you can have for a dog that has prey drive. But as Dogdude said, they can drive for food too. Drive is just a term. If you mean predatory chase/tug that sort of drive, it is a HUGE reward! Reward based training, perhaps the correct term is motivational training. I'm a bit reluctant to use any of those terms as they can be so confusing. I use food sometimes and a piece of hose at others. Tug, chuck the hose. The dog thinks hose greatest thing on earth. But you have to choose what suits your dog best. My advice would be to start building drive as soon as you get the pup whether you use food rewards or not. Lots of tug, ball games hose if you want. I used to use a massive piece of shipping rope with my dog, her on one end and me on the other as a pup. It was great fun. And let the pup WIN. Don't believe the BS that the dog should never win. Hey, take a look at some dvds to work out how you want to train. Look at K9s site, check out the Leerburg DVD called Training Drive, Focus and Grip. Have a look at some of the clicker training DVDs too. Then you can choose how you'd like to train and you can also have a wide spectrum of methods so that as your pup progresses, you can work out what motivates the pup best.

My choice is drive training because that's what my dog lives for. But she wasn't always like that, i had to build it.

PS, a lot of clubs don't do drive training with hoses and stuff. BUT, Croydon is a super, super club. If you are close, I'd go there and check out Leopuppy's dogs as the kind of 'gold standard' in training (she'll probably kill me for that but it's true, she is excellent trainer).

Dont' forget to socialise the pup every single day with things and people and other dogs too Makes life for the pup easier. Check out K9 website again

[BelgianPup]

Thanks all

Arya I will check out that DVD... May have to have a word to Santa :D

I can see that I'll have to do lots of travelling to different clubs before my pup's fully vaccinated

Thank you once again for all the advice

[JulesP]

Croydon's pre-puppy school starts on 9th Jan. It is on Wednesday nights at either 6.30 or 7.30. Puppy just needs 1 injection to go.

[BelgianPup]

Thanks Jules I will keep this in mind (I think it may clash with my vets...)

[Lablover]

Belgianpup,

Just wanted to add - OUTSTANDING, that you are researching before pup arriving.

[kelpiechick]

A really useful reference is 'Building Blocks for Performance' (Bobbie Anderson)

Each chapter is a run down of different foundation exercises to teach a puppy, with particular performance sports in mind.

Obedience, agility and herding foundation/'games' are all covered.

One of my favourite books.

Available on the internet from Clean Run and Dogwise.

[BelgianPup]

Thanks kelpiechick

Lablover - thanks for the praise - always nice to recieve a pat