The Dangers Of Giving Advice On Forums

[Griffo]

I don't understand why you'd be more likely to offer advice about your breed of choice, as temperament has squat to do with a dogs breed.

Of course you can offer advice on issues like grooming and feeding etc, but it is no safer offering behavioural advice for a breed you know vs one you dont. Temperament is not breed specific.

And I responded, saying your assertion was incorrect

and that when it came to ASD and CAO - understanding them as a breed

is the first step to successfully training them.

Hence, why breed advice was/is relevant

This is where i disagree, i believe the first step in training any dog is finding out their drives, what they like and what they don't like. I think this applies to any dog of any breed. If you can recognise these things then knowing the breed is not relevant. Well thats what i believe anyway.

However that said i do appreciate your opinion and understand what you are saying.

[Griffo]

jaybeece

So where do you draw the line? Should people just stop giving any advice so the next person who asks how to get their dog to heel is immediately told to see a behaviouralist?

I think we should ask Troy to close the training section, way to much advcie here

Now i think that's a little extreme.

[jaybeece]

However, I dont think training is breed specific.

So you believe that it's possible to train a CAO using the same methods as a pug? Or a dobe with the same methods as a lab? A mastiff the same as a KCS?

Before you answer that from a broad view I think that you can, afterall you just want them to sit and all dogs sit in the same way. But I think that the breed definitely needs to be taken into consideration as temperament vary vastly between breeds and be very significant so the finer details such as rewards and training tools must vary depending on the breed and/or dog.

Whacking a choker on a "soft" breed and correcting for disobeying is a terrible idea. So is expecting a greyhound to go batty over food rewards. There are certainly exceptions to the rule, but generally speaking it's a good start to determining how to approach training and, as you may have noticed, whenever someone asks for advice the breed is always given or requested.

Edited December 6, 2007 by jaybeece

[MonElite]

I think there is a line where the advice is safe and is not safe to give.

where is that line?

[BJean]

This is where i disagree, i believe the first step in training any dog is finding out their drives, what they like and what they don't like. I think this applies to any dog of any breed. If you can recognise these things then knowing the breed is not relevant. Well thats what i believe anyway.

However that said i do appreciate your opinion and understand what you are saying.

Rachelle,

eg 1: you have a female dog - which you know very well, but it is very dog aggressive.

The level of dog aggression is intense.

Dog is well socialised, great with people, confident and not fear aggressive.

has no prey drive. Pack orientated.

eg 2: You own a male dog - your previous dogs have been GSDs and Dobes - you are a competent dog handler but the dog is exhibiting aggression towards your famiy (partner and children) who the dog has grown up with.

Has no prey drive, pack orientated.

Does it matter what breed of dog the above are?

So you know what the dogs like and don't like - what if you are missing something? what if what you 'know' about your dog is wrong. Most breed issues are because people incorrectly 'know' their dog and what it values.

How do you go about training a dog when your fundamental understanding of what and why your dog is, is wrong?

Is the dog misbehaving by not dropping or sitting? How soon should you expect a response to your command?

[MonElite]

jaybeece - this isnt what Rachelle is saing, she is saying that in dobes there will be soft dog and hard dogs and applying one method becosue of the breed is incorrect.

I totally agree with that.

However her line that any breed of dog can display lets say high prey drive - I disagree, as mentioned before Im yet to hear about a LGB having high prey drive.

[jaybeece]

I agree with that too myszka, but I think the breed is a good general starting point in establishing where to go next.

[Griffo]

However, I dont think training is breed specific.

So you believe that it's possible to train a CAO using the same methods as a pug? Or a dobe with the same methods as a lab? A mastiff the same as a KCS?

Before you answer that from a broad view I think that you can, afterall you just want them to sit and all dogs sit in the same way. But I think that the breed definitely needs to be taken into consideration as temperament vary vastly between breeds and be very significant so the finer details such as rewards and training tools must vary depending on the breed and/or dog.

It depends on the dog's temperament. Not the dog's breed. You wouldnt train 2 pugs with different drives the same, you wouldnt train 2 CAOs with different drives the same (what is with these CAOs people? Do you think they are a super breed of dog or something LOL?)

The vast differences you are talking about occurs between dogs WITHIN the SAME breed.

I am saying that you would train a dog dependent on it's likes, dislikes, drives, not because it is a pug or a BC. I dont think i can be any clearer than that. And i am about tired of repeating myself. *yawn*

Whacking a choker on a "soft" breed and correcting for disobeying is a terrible idea.

NO, no, no, doing that to a soft DOG, not BREED, is a bad idea. There are soft dogs in EVERY breed. To say that all of Y breed will be soft because they are Y breed is absurd. You will get a mix of hard and soft and in between and many other combos within the same breed.

as you may have noticed, whenever someone asks for advice the breed is always given or requested.

The only reasons im interested in the breed is to determine whether the dog can do much damage (a JR vs a GSD) & for interest sake, apart from that there is no reason I personally am interested in the breed.

[Griffo]

This is where i disagree, i believe the first step in training any dog is finding out their drives, what they like and what they don't like. I think this applies to any dog of any breed. If you can recognise these things then knowing the breed is not relevant. Well thats what i believe anyway.

However that said i do appreciate your opinion and understand what you are saying.

Rachelle,

eg 1: you have a female dog - which you know very well, but it is very dog aggressive.

The level of dog aggression is intense.

Dog is well socialised, great with people, confident and not fear aggressive.

has no prey drive. Pack orientated.

eg 2: You own a male dog - your previous dogs have been GSDs and Dobes - you are a competent dog handler but the dog is exhibiting aggression towards your famiy (partner and children) who the dog has grown up with.

Has no prey drive, pack orientated.

Does it matter what breed of dog the above are?

So you know what the dogs like and don't like - what if you are missing something? what if what you 'know' about your dog is wrong. Most breed issues are because people incorrectly 'know' their dog and what it values.

How do you go about training a dog when your fundamental understanding of what and why your dog is, is wrong?

Is the dog misbehaving by not dropping or sitting? How soon should you expect a response to your command?

To fix the problems? It does not matter what breed the dog is, except to establish how big a threat the dog's aggression is.

There will be WAY more information you'd get from seeing a dog than what you have mentioned in your little (very little) "case examples", and many different answers you could get from the little info you have given.

You can nog get answers to those questions over a forum, although, you can get many opinions and "maybes" for sure.

The dog may be disobeying for several reasons, but i am telling you now, it is not because it has spots, fluffy hair, big feet, a deep chest or whatever else.

Yes, it might have something to do with having more of a one trait than another, and this might even be something prevalent in it's breed (it might be something unheard of in the breed too), however, without knowing a single thing about the breed, you can still fix the problem. The fundamental drives & needs of all dogs are the same, just in varying degrees.

The thing is, if you have a problem you have tried to fix, and you cant, then is when you need a professional, because you must be missing something.

Is it because the dog is Y breed and this behaviour should just be accepted? Hell no. Not in my opinion anyway. I would never settle for that as an answer because i believe it is a cop out and a person's way of justifying their dog's bad behaviour,

when, actually, there could be several reasons why your dog is not sitting and not one has to do with the dog's breed;

-handler technique

-training methods

-dog's individual drives

-dog's individual motivations

-pack problems

Just to name a few.

[MonElite]

you wouldnt train 2 CAOs with different drives the same (what is with these CAOs people? Do you think they are a super breed of dog or something LOL?)

sure you wouldnt, no question there.

but it would be hard to find CAOs with highly varying drives, thats all. Have you met any, if any? They are not very popular in Australia at all.

[Griffo]

jaybeece - this isnt what Rachelle is saing, she is saying that in dobes there will be soft dog and hard dogs and applying one method becosue of the breed is incorrect.

I totally agree with that.

However her line that any breed of dog can display lets say high prey drive - I disagree, as mentioned before Im yet to hear about a LGB having high prey drive.

Lets look at it a bit more broadly than that. We are not just talking about prey drive in a LGB here...

What I believe is, because a dog is a certain breed, it doesn't mean it WILL have high prey drive. It doesn't mean it WILL have low rank drive, it doesn't mean it WILL have high food drive, it doesn't mean that it WILL be hard or soft.

Giving answers based on the accepted "norm" for a breed is not a good answer to give. Breed specific advice on training doesnt seem to be any different to drive/temperament/behaviour specific advice to me.

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This is how i am seeing what your saying about breeds being important in diagnosing and programming for a problem...

------------

Dog x has these problems, we have diagnosed and put a program in place for the dog...(1)

Suddenly we found out that dog x is actually breed Y... well lets throw that program away because it no longer applies, so lets re program with breed Y in mind....(2)

Oops we made a mistake, dog x is not breed Y, it is actually breed H, well lets throw out program 1 & 2 and come up with something different, well actually come to think of it, those behaviours are just normal for breed H, it is just the way breed H is. So live with it.

If it was breed Y tho, we could fix it... if it was an unknown breed, we could have fixed it too...

------------------

[BJean]

To fix the problems? It does not matter what breed the dog is, except to establish how big a threat the dog's aggression is.

and how do you think you establish that?

The threat is very real. Try and supersede the dog - get it to do what it does not want to do and it will punish you the way it would punish a lower ranking dog.

The only person of relevance and worth adhering to (according to the dog), is its primary handler - the rest of the family don't matter.

It'd be acceptable for a male ASD to behave as above, but not a CAO.

By 'acceptable' I mean not unsusual for a typical male.

Incidentally 99% of male ASDs that need to be rehomed, need rehoming or removal because of this trait.

CAO in comparison should never actively challenge its family as an adult.

Trainers who do not think that 1000s of years working alongside man as oppsed to 'for man', makes a difference to a dogs psyche and the way it views people are mistaken.

The dog may be disobeying for several reasons, but i am telling you now, it is not because it has spots, fluffy hair, big feet, a deep chest or whatever else.

No its breed and mental make up play an important role - we're not fussed what its colour is.

Rachelle, you also may need to consider training a dog that is quite different mentally to a GSD.

Yes, it might have something to do with having more of a one trait than another, and this might even be something prevalent in it's breed (it might be something unheard of in the breed too), however, without knowing a single thing about the breed, you can still fix the problem. The fundamental drives & needs of all dogs are the same, just in varying degrees.

That's great theory Rachelle but it has little merit in practise.

Firstly you need to know WHAT you should fix and then IF it can be fixed.

In fact that arrogant ethos - where "armed with all the theory you need" breed is irrelevant, is a common mistake. Quite simply it will not succeed.

The thing is, if you have a problem you have tried to fix, and you cant, then is when you need a professional, because you must be missing something.

Is it because the dog is Y breed and this behaviour should just be accepted? Hell no. Not in my opinion anyway. I would never settle for that as an answer because i believe it is a cop out and a person's way of justifying their dog's bad behaviour,

when, actually, there could be several reasons why your dog is not sitting and not one has to do with the dog's breed;

I am laughing for the arrogance and naivity.

Right - okay call the professional - what if they don't know the breed - how accurate will their 'advice' be?

How will they know what is normal for the dog? Is it unstable, or just the wrong home/handler for this particular tempered dog?

Is the dog a lunatic or a bloody brilliant working dog in the wrong home?

Edited December 6, 2007 by lilli

[BJean]

Oops we made a mistake, dog x is not breed Y, it is actually breed H, well lets throw out program 1 & 2 and come up with something different, well actually come to think of it, those behaviours are just normal for breed H, it is just the way breed H is. So live with it.

Rachelle what state do you live in?

'tis impossble for me to discuss the colours and hues of the moon with you, if from where you live the moon has only ever been one colour

Edited December 6, 2007 by lilli

[poodlefan]

I've got another real example...

Handler x says.. "help, I'm trying to get my dog to focus on me for heelwork but all he wants to do is sniff".

Out come all the usual theories.. it's displacement behaviour, your dog doesn't respect you, you need a better motivator etc etc..

And then someone asks the question... what breed is your dog?

It's a Beagle says Handler X. Rachelle, are you going to say that hundreds of year of selective breeding for scent hunting has no bearing on this training issue?

We get these sort of things at my club. Handler Y is disappointed that her JRT's attention isn't glued to her like the Border Collies and Golden Retrievers in the class.

When you explain carefully what her dog was bred to do and how it was bred to do its work independent of human direction, the lights start to come on. It doesn't mean that you don't help the handler gain focus but understanding why a dog might act a certain way plays its role in what you might to do address it.

Edited December 6, 2007 by poodlefan

[Griffo]

I really have no more time to repeat myself...got too much work, i think we will just have to agree to disagree.

I strongly disagree with most of what you have written.

I dont think this discussion is getting us anywhere, perhaps it stems from you having a breed that you would like to believe takes a really special person to raise, when in actual fact it comes down to patience, perseverance, knowledge about dogs & correct handler and training methods.

Perhaps it comes from your own failings as a trainer (or experiences with other trainers) and you would like to think that there was another reason other than lack of competence (ie it's just the way the breed is...it's untrainable, unfixable).

I am sure you will have some other reasons, like it's beacuse i've only owned a GSD (well actually i have owned several different breeds..."difficult" ones included), i have helped many owners with their dog problems extensively from all different breeds...oh including a ACDs... so i really dont believe my experience with different breeds is limited.

Or maybe it is because i am arrogant & ignorant, yep okay, if you say so...that's why i have spent hours upon hours upon hours going to as many courses on dogs' behaviour as i can find...just to fuel my ignorance!!

Any dog can be a lunatic, regardless of the breed. Any dog can be soft, regardless of the breed. It is the dog's drives, temperament, handler, training methods etc where the problems arise, not the dog's breed/name.

You can have the same problems within breeds or between breeds.

Enjoy the rest of your discussion... and thanks a lot for sharing your opinion, it was interesting!

Edited December 7, 2007 by Rachelle

[MonElite]

See Rachelle - we had the same trainer, I went to the same person that you go, for a long time. And I do know what you are talking about when it comes to the point of that the temperament is not breed related. But you are taking it to extreme.

What, lets say PF is trying to tell you is that there are certain traits in some dogs that make it easier or harder to train a certain excercise.

What I believe is, because a dog is a certain breed, it doesn't mean it WILL have high prey drive. It doesn't mean it WILL have low rank drive, it doesn't mean it WILL have high food drive, it doesn't mean that it WILL be hard or soft.

I agree with this somewhat, but I will say that depending on the breed there is more likelyhood of certain traits to appear

So when you say that there can be a lunatic in any breed, I have given you an example of the CAO that I am yet to hear about a lunatic in this breed. They just dont exist.

To give you a further insight of that breed and LSG breeds.

Its unfortunate that some people get a LSG breed in suburbia. Lack of knowledge is to blame for.

They might be good owners but these breeds are difficult and unless you know what these breeds are like you might be applying some techniques that will get you absolutly nowhere. And you will be applying those techniques becouse the dog displays certain behaviours that are typical to pure lazyness.

As an example - that good loving owner will take a dog for a walk in the neighbourhood streets. With time the dog will start to show agression. You will applly techiwues to deal with that agression. But unless you know the breed you will not understand that this dog is doing exactly what it was bred for and its actually WORKING.

This dog has assumed that the whole neighbourhood that you walk around each day its the territory it has to guard. And it will guard it against anyone, even the members of your own family.

All this dog wants to do is to lay down and watch the neighbourhood, this is what it has been bred for, you will struggle trying to teach this dog to heel looking up at your face. It will not have any prey drive, nor food drive and might not have any pack drive. All you are left with are avoidance methods, and those dogs being highly rank might get you in real trouble.

If I might give you some advice. You know a lot about training, and by waht you write you have been quite sucessfull with your own dog. Why dont you go to an obedience club and volounteer to instruct some pet owners.

99.9% all they want to have is a dog not pulling on lead, sitting and waiting for food, not jumping on them or other people and a reasonable recall. Really, pretty basic stuff for someone with your knowledge.

You will gain a lot of knowledge as to dogs temperaments and you might be helping someone with their problems.

If you choose to do so , good luck and enjoy its a lot of fun.

Edited December 7, 2007 by myszka

[BJean]

I really have no more time to repeat myself...got too much work, i think we will just have to agree to disagree.

I strongly disagree with most of what you have written.

I dont think this discussion is getting us anywhere, perhaps it stems from you having a breed that you would like to believe takes a really special person to raise, when in actual fact it comes down to patience, perseverance, knowledge about dogs & correct handler and training methods.

Perhaps it comes from your own failings as a trainer (or experiences with other trainers) and you would like to think that there was another reason other than lack of competence (ie it's just the way the breed is...it's untrainable, unfixable).

I am sure you will have some other reasons, like it's beacuse i've only owned a GSD (well actually i have owned several different breeds..."difficult" ones included), i have helped many owners with their dog problems extensively from all different breeds...oh including a ACDs... so i really dont believe my experience with different breeds is limited.

Or maybe it is because i am arrogant & ignorant, yep okay, if you say so...that's why i have spent hours upon hours upon hours going to as many courses on dogs' behaviour as i can find...just to fuel my ignorance!!

Any dog can be a lunatic, regardless of the breed. Any dog can be soft, regardless of the breed. It is the dog's drives, temperament, handler, training methods etc where the problems arise, not the dog's breed/name.

You can have the same problems within breeds or between breeds.

Enjoy the rest of your discussion... and thanks a lot for sharing your opinion, it was interesting!

Rachelle if you are ever in Victoria and want to add some practical experience to your course studies

there are a few working ASDs in Victoria

which I think would be educational for you to meet.

There is a Turkish famer who would benefit from your knowledge

poor dear loves his 'special dogs' and discusses them with myself - another failed incompetent handler.

So please when you are in Vic

don't be a stranger

educate us deluded and uneducated, on some 'difficult' dogs

apply your theory

show us how it all

"comes down to patience, perseverance, knowledge about dogs & correct handler and training methods.

Perhaps it comes from your own failings as a trainer (or experiences with other trainers) and you would like to think that there was another reason other than lack of competence (ie it's just the way the breed is...it's untrainable, unfixable"

It will be fantastic.

Edited December 7, 2007 by lilli

[poodlefan]

Rachelle:

It is the dog's drives, temperament, handler, training methods etc where the problems arise, not the dog's breed/name.

But in some most, breeds have been developed specifically to enhance some drives and to decrease others. I agree with you that there is no one set of characteristics within a breed. However, the whole point of establishing breeds was to increase the predictability of characterstics. You can breed for people focus as readily as you can breed for independence and self sufficiency. These are not randomly assigned drives or temperament.

I see quite a common problem in newer dog trainers, many of who have started with a 'more trainable' breed and who bring only their knowledge of that one dog or dogs like it to the table. Bring them a completely different breed and they sometimes simply don't understand what makes this 'different' dog tick and why their standard methods are failing.

Eg. some breeds simply won't go for the repeated drilling that working dogs tend to tolerate. For some breeds, human beings are not the centre of the universe.

To me one of the greatest benefits of positive motivational training is that it has whole new breeds into the dog sports, and in particular, the obedience rings. To see sighthounds, terriers and all kinds of breeds achieving is not something a lot of 'traditional' trainers would have believed possible 50 years ago.

Yes, there are differences within breeds but understanding what is typical for one gives a trainer a place to start. In the end you train the dog in front of you but you have to start somewhere. With something like a livestock guardian, knowing what is typical is a bloody safe place to start too.

You ain't going to be grabbing the lead off such a dog's handler and going "here let ME show you how to place the dog in a sit position" are you?

Edited December 7, 2007 by poodlefan

[SkySoaringMagpie]

I have always thought it was a tad dangerous to give people advice on training horses over forums. You can't see what the horse is doing, you don't know the ability of the person and you can't check that the timing is correct. I suspect it is the same for dog training.

Thoughts?

I think forum advice only becomes dangerous when the advice givers don't recognise the limitations of a forum. After all, "go and see a qualified behaviourist about your dog's aggression" is advice, and it's good advice usually.

To be honest, plenty of face to face trainers don't pay enough attention to handler capability, timing and dog body language either. I have learned a lot from trainers, but I have also learned a lot from books, email advice and videos.

[Erny]

The way I read it, I think the point Rachelle tried to make from the outset is that even if you know a specific breed in general, the giving of advice over the internet for the treatment of that individual dog is still fraught with potential to be wrong, simply because that individual dog may not be typical of its breed.