The Dangers Of Giving Advice On Forums

[JulesP]

I have always thought it was a tad dangerous to give people advice on training horses over forums. You can't see what the horse is doing, you don't know the ability of the person and you can't check that the timing is correct. I suspect it is the same for dog training.

Thoughts?

[poodlefan]

I agree when it's relating to aggressive behaviour. However, suggestions about things to try to resolve training issues are usually pretty innocuous.

[sidoney]

Yup, I think one needs to weigh up the situation and potential outcomes of the advice. Serious issues or ones that could have negative outcomes are most likely to need face to face advice (edit: from a reputable person).

It's also good to talk about training theory and philosophy on forums.

Edited December 4, 2007 by sidoney

[ness]

I agree with the sentiments thus far it really does depend on what advice is being asked. If its merely a case of something "training related" as distinct from a major or even minor aggression issues then I don't see the harm. Basically if nothing hangs on the advice such as who cares if you try x to get your dog to heel to trial standard and they don't or you try x to get your dog to retrieve a dumbbell and it doesn't work then I don't see a problem.

Of course they can't see you in action but a number of specific training problems others have also encountered and found ways to fix them (not always convential ones either).

So I believe specific trial type training information and general basic pet stuff can be given online without to many repercussions. Hell if I hadn't got my trialling stuff online I would have given up as I wasn't getting much help from members at my club.

[JulesP]

But even teaching basic stuff like sit etc and doing it wrong (wrong timing, reward etc) could lead to a confused dog and possible behavioural issues if the dog is that way inclined.

[peibe]

Agreed it can be dangerous, although I will offer advise on some issues especially concerning my breed of choice

[BJean]

Agreed it can be dangerous, although I will offer advise on some issues especially concerning my breed of choice

Yep me too peibe

*only because*

often professional advice is hard to seek with my breeds

and often those seeking advice, are nearing a point

where a person with first hand breed experience, is needed to assist on some level.

(Disasterous case in point: where a Melbourne obedience instructor, decided to make an in-front-of-class example

of a male Anatolian who would not sit -

the dog 'trainer' did not win.)

The same dog was successuflly rehomed to an experienced home interstate

but on the way "missed all possible flights for the day"

and required "3 professional dog handlers"

to get him into the crate

only for the dog to get himself out.

Err Anatolian owners, I wouldn't fly Jetpets for a while :D

Edited December 4, 2007 by lilli

[Griffo]

Very dangerous to give advice on a forum. For a start you can not see the dog to read it's body language which is probably the most vital part of diagnosis. You also can not see the owner and how they are interacting with the dog which is equally important.

On forums you will find that the posters tend to post what they have noticed/seen, but the problem is, 99% of the time, they have missed so much... or added in misleading information (usually unintentionally)

an example...

You might have a highly rank dog which readers have misdiagnosed as a fear aggressive dog or a high prey dog etc, they give a solution in par with what they have read, which could possibly tip the rank aggressive dog over the edge and cause a very dangerous situation.

Best and safest advice anyone can give is to see a professional behaviorist.

[Griffo]

Agreed it can be dangerous, although I will offer advise on some issues especially concerning my breed of choice

I don't understand why you'd be more likely to offer advice about your breed of choice, as temperament has squat to do with a dogs breed.

Of course you can offer advice on issues like grooming and feeding etc, but it is no safer offering behavioural advice for a breed you know vs one you dont. Temperament is not breed specific.

[poodlefan]

Rachelle:

You might have a highly rank dog which readers have misdiagnosed as a fear aggressive dog or a high prey dog etc, they give a solution in par with what they have read, which could possibly tip the rank aggressive dog over the edge and cause a very dangerous situation.

Best and safest advice anyone can give is to see a professional behaviorist

.

For behavioural issues I agree. It is the ONLY advice I give for such topics.

For the questions like "how can I get my puppy/dog to sit, walk on loose lead, not jump on me, come when called, or be toilet trained" I think there's value in explaining methods of training and helping with training issues.

Not everyone here has access to dog trainers and clubs and helping people have a dog they want to live with profits the dog IMO.

[MonElite]

not every person that asks for advice over the net has behavioural issues with the dog.

As to temperament v's breed there are certain traits in a given breed that are more prevelent in another.

Hence a general advice about breed of choice has its place IMHO.

[MonElite]

uuuppsss double post

Edited December 5, 2007 by myszka

[poodlefan]

Agreed it can be dangerous, although I will offer advise on some issues especially concerning my breed of choice

Yep me too peibe

*only because*

often professional advice is hard to seek with my breeds

and often those seeking advice, are nearing a point

where a person with first hand breed experience, is needed to assist on some level.

(Disasterous case in point: where a Melbourne obedience instructor, decided to make an in-front-of-class example

of a male Anatolian who would not sit -

the dog 'trainer' did not win.)

Lilli, this is one of the reasons why you'll only see me advocate positive motivational methods of training over the net, although I do believe in the appropriate use of corrections with some dogs.

The problem with training by bullying is that every once in a while you're going to meet a dog that:

a. won't tolerate it

b. reacts negatively to it.

Jerk or push the wrong dog around physically, and you can end up in strife. The worst your average dog owner will end up with using positive motivational methods is an untrained, fat dog and that's one of the reasons why many dog clubs have embraced it.. it isn't potentially harmful in the overwhelming majority of cases.

The sad question you have to ask yourself is how many dogs that person DID bully before he/she was called for it. My personal view is that if you wouldnt use the method on a large assertive breed, why should a smaller breed have to put up with it.

I'm glad you found an experienced home for your boy. They arent' for everyone are they. I have a friend who is an animal behaviouralist by training and who works in that field. She loves livestock guardians and has one herself.. the best kind of home because she genuinely understands how those breeds have been engineered to think.

Don't get her started on crossing such things as Mareemas/Golden Retrievers as is happening around here though..

[Griffo]

As to temperament v's breed there are certain traits in a given breed that are more prevelent in another.

no one can argue with that

Hence a general advice about breed of choice has its place IMHO.

i still disagree with that tho. Some traits might be prevalent but that will also cause people owning that breed & giving advice to assume that it is most likely a dominance issue because it is breed Z, a fear issue because it is breed Y. etc etc. That is still very dangerous. Jumping to conclusions over a forum because you have experience with the same breed is not a clever thing to do, ever.

[poodlefan]

Rachelle:

i still disagree with that tho. Some traits might be prevalent but that will also cause people owning that breed & giving advice to assume that it is most likely a dominance issue because it is breed Z, a fear issue because it is breed Y. etc etc. That is still very dangerous. Jumping to conclusions over a forum because you have experience with the same breed is not a clever thing to do, ever.

You are still talking behaviour, not training.

If person X who knows JRTs well, has some tips for gaining focus with them or person Y who knows beagles well has some tips for getting their noses off the ground, those tips are not behaviourally specific for only dominant or timid dogs are they?

I agree that all behaviour is not breed specific but if I had a terrier and I could get advice from someone who'd trained three terriers to UD or three Golden Retrievers to UD, I reckon the first person might have a few more insights into how to help me train my dog in obedience.

[Griffo]

Rachelle:

i still disagree with that tho. Some traits might be prevalent but that will also cause people owning that breed & giving advice to assume that it is most likely a dominance issue because it is breed Z, a fear issue because it is breed Y. etc etc. That is still very dangerous. Jumping to conclusions over a forum because you have experience with the same breed is not a clever thing to do, ever.

You are still talking behaviour, not training.

Training, behaviour, temperament, drives go hand in hand. You would be silly to separate the two.

[poodlefan]

Rachelle:

i still disagree with that tho. Some traits might be prevalent but that will also cause people owning that breed & giving advice to assume that it is most likely a dominance issue because it is breed Z, a fear issue because it is breed Y. etc etc. That is still very dangerous. Jumping to conclusions over a forum because you have experience with the same breed is not a clever thing to do, ever.

You are still talking behaviour, not training.

Training, behaviour, temperament, drives go hand in hand. You would be silly to separate the two.

Are you saying that dogs of differing drive and temperament cannot be taught behaviours using the same basic method eg. lure and reward?

Is toilet training drive dependent?

Edited December 5, 2007 by poodlefan

[MonElite]

Hence a general advice about breed of choice has its place IMHO.

i still disagree with that tho. Jumping to conclusions over a forum because you have experience with the same breed is not a clever thing to do, ever.

if we were to take that view further that would mean that its not a good idea to buy a book on dog training, or a DVD.

And the general advice that is often provided on the forums is non breed non temperament specific most of the time.

Prime example is my thread about teaching my dog to pull on lead, where ever helpfull PF has given me a one sentence advice.

[JulesP]

Yes I would put a book in the same category but a DVD is slightly better as at least you can see the hand signals etc, get a feel for the tone of voice needed, copy the body language etc.

[Griffo]

Rachelle:

i still disagree with that tho. Some traits might be prevalent but that will also cause people owning that breed & giving advice to assume that it is most likely a dominance issue because it is breed Z, a fear issue because it is breed Y. etc etc. That is still very dangerous. Jumping to conclusions over a forum because you have experience with the same breed is not a clever thing to do, ever.

You are still talking behaviour, not training.

Training, behaviour, temperament, drives go hand in hand. You would be silly to separate the two.

Are you saying that dogs of differing drive and temperament cannot be taught behaviours using the same basic method eg. lure and reward?

Is toilet training drive dependent?

I dont believe i said that anywhere, i believe i said

"Training, behaviour, temperament, drives go hand in hand. You would be silly to separate the two."

Is toilet training breed specific?