Biting & Dominance Behaviour?

[Guest LoveMyCuddledog]

Twice in the last week my boy has gripped my wrist with his teeth. Initially I just put it down to his way of communication but after having a chat with a couple of people I'm starting to feel that it could well be a precursor to aggression.

The first time we were down the park practising the NILF. I had the boy sit, held onto his collar & once he was calm threw the ball. Instantly he wanted to chase it & threw a wobbly (up on his hind legs, lunging, barking) and then grabbed my wrist in his mouth. Quickly after doing this he sat down & looked at me like butter wouldn't melt in his mouth. I waited about a minute & then let him go to chase the ball. We did this again a couple of times & with each instance he quickly sat down & looked at me while I held his collar before I allowed him to chase the ball. Yesterday while we were out walking I accidentally stepped on his paw. Initially he just yelped but then again grabbed my wrist before sitting down & looking at me.

He's never once done this in the past. If I've accidentally stepped on him he's just yelped. We've also been practicing TOT each night but he hasn't shown any inclination to bite.

On one hand it's been suggested that I've done the right thing in not reacting but waiting until he's calm before giving him what he wants but it's also been suggested that I could be making the biting acceptable by not reacting. In a pack the dominant dog would show the dog that the behaviour is unacceptable.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

[poodlefan]

See a decent behaviouralist. I'd not want to suggest what's going on unless I saw the behaviour and I'm not really qualified to diagnose it anyway.

Your dog does appear to have good bite inhibition. Be grateful for it.

[Kavik]

It sounds like he gets very excited and frustrated that you are not letting him get the ball straight away. One thing you could try is put him on lead and stand on the lead or hold the lead when you throw the ball. Then if he throws a tantie at least you won't be bitten.

EFS

Edited December 3, 2007 by Kavik

[Tonymc]

Frustration and pain.If somebody steps on my foot hard,I will react too!!! Tony

[Guest LoveMyCuddledog]

LOL yeah I'm sure I can see a few eye rolls there. OK thank for the responses, just wanted to check to ensure I wasn't misunderstanding the behaviour. Obviously I'm not as ontop of the leadership thing as I thought, this past couple of weeks has shown that there's still some areas we can improve on. Triton seems fairly happy & well adjusted otherwise, apart from the lack of self-control, the neighbours have been very appreciative of his lack of barking & my dog-scared mother loves him to bits.

[poodlefan]

No eyes rolls here.

It could be frustration or it could be something else. Having not met you or your dog, I'm not going to hazard a behavioural diagnosis that might be wrong at best or dangerous at worst.

[Poodle wrangler]

Keep up the NILIF and TOT- are you extending the time, distance etc. per the program?

Some dogs are a naturally more dominant temperament, but you wouldn't want this beahviour to deteriorate into something nastier.

If he were to do something like you describe to a stranger, they only have to call it a bite and he can be declared a "dangerous dog". That means he must be muzzled in public, housed in a special dog run etc.

You're better to get good advice early.

What area? Perhaps someone can make a recommendation for a behaviourist for you?

[Guest LoveMyCuddledog]

No eyes rolls here.

It could be frustration or it could be something else. Having not met you or your dog, I'm not going to hazard a behavioural diagnosis that might be wrong at best or dangerous at worst.

That's fair enough. I've forwarded the information to Kathy McLeod, who has met & fallen inlove with Triton, as well as the original trainer who brought the boy into my life to see what they come up with. Admittedly there has been some big changes of late with me bringing in the leadership training & I suspect part if it may be the changes & Triton being resistant to these. We'll see what Kathy & Tamara come up with anyway. He's great otherwise, mixed very well with the other dogs down the park last night & loves people to bits.

[Guest LoveMyCuddledog]

Keep up the NILIF and TOT- are you extending the time, distance etc. per the program?

Some dogs are a naturally more dominant temperament, but you wouldn't want this beahviour to deteriorate into something nastier.

If he were to do something like you describe to a stranger, they only have to call it a bite and he can be declared a "dangerous dog". That means he must be muzzled in public, housed in a special dog run etc.

You're better to get good advice early.

What area? Perhaps someone can make a recommendation for a behaviourist for you?

We haven't been extending the distance etc because he hasn't been watching me while eating but actually puts his back to me. I'm waiting until he does to take further steps. I've sent an email to Kathy McLeod who came over to help me with Triton's dog aggression. Although the boy didn't put a foot wrong with either of her two so she sees him as a perfect angel! Admittedly he has been very good with his recent interactions with other dogs. I've also kept these meetings very short & positive with a quick game of fetch to entice him away before there's any chance of dominance behaviour.

I would be very surprised if this did develop into aggressive behaviour as the boy loves people & was very quick to correct his behaviour after the initial bite. I think maybe the changes I've made recently may have been too much for him? Too much too soon?

[JulesP]

Can't really think of any polite way to say this - but are you sure that you know what TOT and NILF are? If you don't have a clear idea then you could be confusing the dog. I know that you only heard about these things on Reddii's thread the other week.

With TOT the dog is supposed to look at you before it eats. Once you have given the command to eat you go away and let it eat. Please correct me Steve if that is wrong!

With NILF you should have asked the dog to sit and then thrown the ball and let it go straight away. The sit was the NILF bit. You could work up to the dog sitting for a while. So the dog likes chasing the ball, it wants the ball. It has to do something for you to get the ball, but it should get the ball straight away. Same if the dog comes up and wants a pat, it has to sit/drop or something first.

[Guest LoveMyCuddledog]

Can't really think of any polite way to say this - but are you sure that you know what TOT and NILF are? If you don't have a clear idea then you could be confusing the dog. I know that you only heard about these things on Reddii's thread the other week.

With TOT the dog is supposed to look at you before it eats. Once you have given the command to eat you go away and let it eat. Please correct me Steve if that is wrong!

With NILF you should have asked the dog to sit and then thrown the ball and let it go straight away. The sit was the NILF bit. You could work up to the dog sitting for a while. So the dog likes chasing the ball, it wants the ball. It has to do something for you to get the ball, but it should get the ball straight away. Same if the dog comes up and wants a pat, it has to sit/drop or something first.

I can see your point. Obviously I got the NILF thing wrong but in the description of TOT the dog has to look at you while it's eating. I think? I'll give it another read.

Actually, you're right. I mis-read what he was trying to say. Thanks for the correction :D

Edited December 4, 2007 by LoveMyCuddledog

[Poodle wrangler]

I don't think it's a case of too much, too soon.

Consistency is what a dog needs. They also like routine. They need leadership or will take this role on themselves (dog as leader is an extra stress for the dog).

You need to learn to see things from their point of view which is often different to what you might believe.

Get that behaviourist as they can help with all this as well as any specific problems.

Biting can lead to death (by council order if it's someone else), just as an illness could.

If your dog was sick, you'd take them to the vet?

Why not a behaviourist?

[Guest LoveMyCuddledog]

I don't think it's a case of too much, too soon.

Consistency is what a dog needs. They also like routine. They need leadership or will take this role on themselves (dog as leader is an extra stress for the dog).

You need to learn to see things from their point of view which is often different to what you might believe.

Get that behaviourist as they can help with all this as well as any specific problems.

Biting can lead to death (by council order if it's someone else), just as an illness could.

If your dog was sick, you'd take them to the vet?

Why not a behaviourist?

Please don't missread my posting as reluctance. I just read the posting about the dangers of posting advice in situations where the dog is displaying aggressiveness & can see the point of the message. I've forwarded an email to a behaviouralist I've dealt with recently and am awaiting contact.