A Couple Of Questions

[shekhina]

I am moving house next Friday and I'm wanting to start off well by creating some new rules for the dogs. Now, I am a bit (or a lot) naughty, and I do allow my dogs to get away with things that other people might not...simply because those things don't bother me too much.

Things like asking for a drink from an empty sink, or giving me a hug (jump up) when I ask for it when I get home, stuff like that...but this new place may have young kids (two 7 year olds and a 6 year old) moving in at some stage, so there's some stuff that needs to stop and I'm not sure how best to go about it.

I guess the main problem is excitement and being very in your face...both boys are like that. Jaida isn't a problem, she's an older dog and is very calm, but the boys are very much 'hello there, I really like you, I'd like a pat now please'. Now they're only like this with other people, not me, they know they are to behave differently with me and they wont demand anything and they are calm...but when people come around it's like they've never been trained What's with that?! :cool:

So...how do I teach the boys NOT to get too excited when people come around and NOT to shove their faces into the kids? The kids have said it frightens them so it has to stop, I'm just not sure what the best way is to teach this? I mean when I taught them not to do that with me it involved ignoring the behaviour but that's not going to work with the kids, it's been tried and the kids aren't getting it so the dogs are not learning. So what to do?

The kids will be visiting regularly from when I move, so there will be times to practice things.

Another thing I'd like the dogs to learn is to lay on their own mat in the lounge room while they're inside. I don't mean all the time, like come inside get on your mat and don't move, more if they're getting in the way they're told to go lay on their mat and they go, and they stay, and I don't have to keep telling them and they don't keep getting back up and annoying whoever. They are crate trained, but I do not want crates in the living areas anymore and I would much prefer they are on a mat instead of in crates.

Oh, and how do you train three dogs for these things at once? Am I getting myself into a nightmare? ;) ;)

Edited for typo.

Edited November 29, 2007 by shekhina

[PAX]

Hey Shek,

I let my dogs jump on me but only with an invitation and I call it 'paws up', they never jump on other people as this is trick for me.

All training needs to be one on one until they know the behaviour.

I would suggest you teach your dogs one by one a cute trick that will win the kids over. Let the kids help you to train them to lay on their mats. Have lots of treats on standby and teach the kids how to correctly give treats to gentle dogs.

[Poodle wrangler]

Sounds like the kids are scared of the dogs atm.

People are even sacred of an apricot standard poodle (avatar) that looks and acts like a teddy bear, too .

Perhaps they can spend some time being able to see the dogs, but separated from them so they get used to them?

I'd keep dogs and kids separated until you have the behaviour under control, otherwise kid's fear will get worse and they may never get along.

Then, you can start 1:1 with 1 kid + 1 dog. Time consuming!!!

I'd teach each dog to sit to greet people.

Can't jump with bum on floor.

Easy... get someone to practice with, give them some treats, put dog on lead (no option to jump) and practice!

If dog goes to jump up, the person turns their back and ignores them, arms crossed. When they sit, treat.

Once the dogs have the idea, you can get the kids to do the same routine, 1:1, dog on leash as backup.

For quicker results, I'd make the dogs do this with everyone, including yourself. Once your happy with their behaviour with the kids, reintroduce jumping up as a trick with you only.

"On your mat" is easy to teach- I say, "mat", lead them over, "sit", then "good dog" and treat. Doesn't take long at all as they soon realise it's better to sit on their mats than be sent outside. They chose to sit there unless it's really hot and they use the tiles, then.

[shekhina]

Thanks for the tips

How do I go about curbing the excitement? The dogs do not jump on the kids, they (Daegon especially) just put their faces into them because they want to be close but that is scaring the kids. How can you just get the dogs to ignore them for the most part so that they're not so interested in getting so close to them?

It would be nicer of course if they could all just get along, but I don't know how that's going to happen if the dogs don't stop with some of the excitement. From watching the dogs it's just at first, then they settle, they're the same with me. But Daegon can't even walk up to the kids and be close without them trying to get away and climbing onto the back of the couch. He's not doing anything wrong except standing next to them and wagging his stumpy stump. The poor dog is getting told 'no Daegon, no Daegon' every time he goes near them

[NaturallyWild]

Thanks for the tips

How do I go about curbing the excitement? The dogs do not jump on the kids, they (Daegon especially) just put their faces into them because they want to be close but that is scaring the kids. How can you just get the dogs to ignore them for the most part so that they're not so interested in getting so close to them?

One option is that each time the kids (or other people) and dogs are introduced that the dogs are not allowed to "say hello" until they have calmed down and even not looking for attention from the new person. Let them calm themselves down on their own, no interaction from anyone (just keeping them under control on a lead) until they get bored. This is when i would let them go and say hello (and maybe sit for a treat), if they get rev'd up again then create space again. Lot and lots of repetitions of this. Be patient, it may take quite some time for them to relax initially but the more you repeat it with new person after new person, they will eventually catch on.

Edited November 30, 2007 by NaturallyWild

[poodlefan]

Shekina, I'd be lining up the crates and letting the dogs meet the kids one at a time. You need to focus on each dog while you train for a calm greeting.

[shekhina]

One option is that each time the kids (or other people) and dogs are introduced that the dogs are not allowed to "say hello" until they have calmed down and even not looking for attention from the new person. Let them calm themselves down on their own, no interaction from anyone (just keeping them under control on a lead) until they get bored. This is when i would let them go and say hello (and maybe sit for a treat), if they get rev'd up again then create space again. Lot and lots of repetitions of this. Be patient, it may take quite some time for them to relax initially but the more you repeat it with new person after new person, they will eventually catch on.

Thanks, I will try this

Shekina, I'd be lining up the crates and letting the dogs meet the kids one at a time.

I usually start out with the dogs in the crates, the kids are fine then. They are far more interested in playing with the cats though, so perhaps we need to make some time for learning how to be around the dogs without the distraction of the cats?

Daegon will bark at people while he's crated, I think it's from excitement and demanding attention perhaps? He will not do this to me, he knows he'll cop it from me. When he does this to other people should I be the one to get stuck into him for it or should the people he's barking at simply turn away from him and ignore him?

Ignoring him works for some things with Daegon, I find when he's really excited though that I need to verbally reinforce that he's doing the wrong thing.

ETA: and what about Daegon being told off when he's not doing anything except walking near them, not being excited, nothing like that...just being there? I guess it's about training the kids as well, but how much can you really expect?

Edited November 30, 2007 by shekhina

[NaturallyWild]

Daegon will bark at people while he's crated, I think it's from excitement and demanding attention perhaps? He will not do this to me, he knows he'll cop it from me. When he does this to other people should I be the one to get stuck into him for it or should the people he's barking at simply turn away from him and ignore him?

Ignoring him works for some things with Daegon, I find when he's really excited though that I need to verbally reinforce that he's doing the wrong thing.

ETA: and what about Daegon being told off when he's not doing anything except walking near them, not being excited, nothing like that...just being there? I guess it's about training the kids as well, but how much can you really expect?

If the barking is overexcitement/attention seeking i would careful about verbally trying to correct this as it may just give him some of the attention he wants - simply ignore and walk off - walk back when quiet. Another option is to throw a towel over the top when this starts and removing it when it stops.

Another thing that might be worthwhile you practising is body blocking to calm your dogs down - try this when they are playing, simply stepping in between them and preventing them getting at each other (focus on the one who is more over the top at the time). Your body signals will start telling them to calm down rather than having to use verbal or physical corrections which might not be good with kids involved (they can think there is something to be worried about, or worse try an imitate).

Your spot on about needing to train the kids as well, they need just as many rules as the dogs - but getting them involved in specific fun games can be really rewarding. There are a few books and videos on training with kids so might be worthwhile having a look at some - dogwise has a heap i think.

Also think about upping the amount of rewards/treats that you give them for just calm quiet behaviour at any time (guests as well - once they've calmed down - the dogs that is ).

[PAX]

You can easily train them to go in their crates when the visitors arrive with the help of some pigs ears.

I agree with NW, if they are barking while crated just cover the crate (no talking from you) with a blanket, as soon as they are quiet remove the cover. I think the consequence should be from you as you are the leader.

Getting the kids onboard with the training will be good for the kids and the dogs and teaching some easy tricks will help win the kids over, do it one dog at a time. Rotties will usually do anything for food so it shouldn't be too hard.

If the kids prefer the cats, I am sure once they can get the dogs to do some simple tricks the dogs will be more interesting then the cats. The more they are around each other the less excited they will be.

If my dogs are interested in little kids I always tell the kids 'my dog loves you, they want to kiss you because they know you are so kind' and just carry on a bit.

[Guest Pandii]

Shekhina I can send you a fully trainer 6yo to help you LOL

Some one will have much better advice than me, but if you can teach the on the mat to your dogs, then when the kids come over get the dogs to stay on their mats, and the kids ignor them, this will make the kids seem boring to the dogs and maybe stop the in your face the dogs do.

another one is have the dogs contained then once the kids have settled down and are busy doing things like watching TV or what ever let the dogs in one at a time, maybe jaida first, let her sniff then settle ont he mat with a chew toy, then the boys one by one.

Our dogs are very quiet inside (most of the time) as our visitors ignor until the dogs are quiet and laying down, then they get invited for a pat. Both Dante and Ty will not even get up when someone walks in teh door, unless they come in very noisey and rowdy.

[Poodle wrangler]

Sounds like kids don't like the dogs, yet :D.

My Mum used to babysit a preschooler for over a year and she was scared of our mini poodle (outside only dog).

She'd talk to him through the window, but never wanted to go near him. She'd never been closer than the window, looking out, so no bad experiences even.

I'd train the dogs, but be prepared that the kids may never like them . They might be cat people (madness!!!).

Kids are kids and have to fit in with the adults, however.

They should do some basic training with the dogs and get some reward for doing so e.g. we'll go out/ play computer game/ watch favourite TV show after you've spent 5 minutes training with the dog. Only 5 minutes, though. Try to make it positive and fun for them and dogs.

[kamuzz]

Think Poodle wrangler might be on to something with those suggestions.

How could anyone NOT want Daegon snuffling up to them?

Can the kids help you feed the dogs? Am assuming your dogs sit for their food so it might be an easy way to get the kids involved?

Or you can just send Daegon up to me :D

[shekhina]

If the barking is overexcitement/attention seeking i would careful about verbally trying to correct this as it may just give him some of the attention he wants - simply ignore and walk off - walk back when quiet. Another option is to throw a towel over the top when this starts and removing it when it stops.

Another thing that might be worthwhile you practising is body blocking to calm your dogs down - try this when they are playing, simply stepping in between them and preventing them getting at each other (focus on the one who is more over the top at the time).

I guess the difficulty, that I see anyways, is that when I tell the dogs off they almost always listen and don't repeat the behaviour...the only time they don't is when they are so excited like when someone is visiting. So I think in those situations a blanket over the crate is a good idea

I will give the body blocking a go too, thanks

Getting the kids onboard with the training will be good for the kids and the dogs and teaching some easy tricks will help win the kids over, do it one dog at a time. Rotties will usually do anything for food so it shouldn't be too hard.

If my dogs are interested in little kids I always tell the kids 'my dog loves you, they want to kiss you because they know you are so kind' and just carry on a bit.

I hadn't thought of helping the kids teach them tricks. I don't know if much can be done with Kovu at the moment...he is VERY full on, and VERY prey driven...he is fine if it's just him and no distractions, but he's not a dog I would let kids throw a toy for. He's very good with me and will sit and look at my face for me to throw the toy, but he gets frustrated quickly and he may jump up at them. So toys+kids+Kovu = no ;)

Daegon on the other hand is a big gentle boy, so long as he's not competing with Kovu for anything. I feel that Kovu and Daegon should not be together around the kids unless they are crated, they are big strong boys and will have possession scraps and I'm not going to risk anyone getting hurt. So total separation with the boys if there is any food/toys/cats/etc., but both can be with Jaida with these things and no issues there at all.

I have tried to explain to the kids that Daegon is just trying to give them kisses because he loves them...they will giggle about it, but then will get back up on the back of the couch.

I have had this problem in the past with these particular kids and Kovu when he was younger and even the cats...they were really scared of the cats. Problem was, when their father was around they were scared...when their father wasn't around they were asking me to put the cats on their laps ;) I am wondering if a similar thing is going on here, and if I can get their father out of the house for a while and have the kids and Daegon to myself if they would react differently and gain some confidence.

Shekhina I can send you a fully trainer 6yo to help you LOL

Some one will have much better advice than me, but if you can teach the on the mat to your dogs, then when the kids come over get the dogs to stay on their mats, and the kids ignor them, this will make the kids seem boring to the dogs and maybe stop the in your face the dogs do.

Our dogs are very quiet inside (most of the time) as our visitors ignor until the dogs are quiet and laying down, then they get invited for a pat. Both Dante and Ty will not even get up when someone walks in teh door, unless they come in very noisey and rowdy.

That's just what I was thinking Pandii...that if the dogs learn to lay quietly on their mats while people are around that it'll help the kids settle and help the dogs curb their excitement. I so wish I had dogs who didn't react to people coming in the door (well trying to GET in the door ) How long can you expect this ignoring them when people come over thing to take until the dogs realise that bouncing around all over the place doesn't work?

Kids are kids and have to fit in with the adults, however.

They should do some basic training with the dogs and get some reward for doing so e.g. we'll go out/ play computer game/ watch favourite TV show after you've spent 5 minutes training with the dog. Only 5 minutes, though. Try to make it positive and fun for them and dogs.

I think that's a really good idea, incorporating them teaching the dogs something and them being rewarded for it also.

How could anyone NOT want Daegon snuffling up to them?

Can the kids help you feed the dogs? Am assuming your dogs sit for their food so it might be an easy way to get the kids involved?

Or you can just send Daegon up to me

Daegon wont be going anywhere...I'll be shipping the kids off to you before Daegon! ;)

I wouldn't allow the kids to feed the dogs. I need to feed both males together to get Daegon to eat, and I wont put a child in that situation where there is even a remote possibility of an argument. The dogs are trained to sit, wait and watch before given a command to eat, but dogs will be dogs. Jaida is not good with food either, she is a pig and may accidentally nip in her attempts to get at the food...although again, she is trained to sit, wait and watch...with direct supervision and her restrained it could be done safely. Daegon could certainly be fed by the kids on his own, same as Kovu...but then Daegon might stop eating again. Complicated I know! I could certainly trial having them fed separately, one kid for one dog, and see how it goes.

[NaturallyWild]

I hadn't thought of helping the kids teach them tricks. I don't know if much can be done with Kovu at the moment...he is VERY full on, and VERY prey driven...he is fine if it's just him and no distractions, but he's not a dog I would let kids throw a toy for. He's very good with me and will sit and look at my face for me to throw the toy, but he gets frustrated quickly and he may jump up at them. So toys+kids+Kovu = no

You definitely need to make 110% sure of safety in all situations (which it sounds like your doing), but that doesn't mean that the kids can't be involved in some fun training.

Working with one dog at a time, If you were to keep that dog on lead with you and you are the one that gives the rewards (toys or treats) but its the kids that ask the dog what to do, or even give them a clicker and just do some free shaping (remember you can still reward even if the kids didn't click to prevent frustration occurring). There are a lot of different options that still keep the kids safe but get them involved and as you said they may want too if their dad isn't around.

[shekhina]

Thanks, I will definitely be giving this stuff a go...first of all, I need to get Dad outta the house I think