What To Do With Dominant Aggressive Pup

[poodlefan]

4Legged:

Something you may want to try to do to re-establish that leadership role:

- put some food in a closed container and put in on the ground. If your dog is dominant over you, it most likely will dive for it. Instead of using 'obedience' commands like 'Leave'. I would use body blocks to block acesss to the food. Step in to stop your dog everytime so it can't get at it, at the same time look the dog in the eye, say nothing, stand tall, chest out as if to say' This food belongs to me, you stay away. Your dog may growl at you, say nothing, stand your ground, and keep on looking it in the eye. You want your dog to back away by itself and you take the container & claim it. Don't reward her with food. It is your right to claim

4 Legs, I'm not going to debate strategies for dealing with dominance with you as I've never seen this dog and a qualified veterinary behaviouralist is now involved. I think we've discussed the dangers of online behavioural management before.

However, did you actually note that this dog has bitten Carp?

[cowanbree]

Carp sometimes the best thing for the dog is to go back to the breeder. In this case it does not sound as if this dog fits with what you are looking for, it does happen and she may be better off in another home.

Personally I find it very unusual for a 6mth old sheltie baby to be exhibiting this type of behavior. In 20 years plus of breeding I have never heard anything like it. Are you sure that it is dominance rather than fear?

[Erny]

The dog has already bitten Carp - although leadership strategies are required, these need to be implemented with care and knowledge. Confrontation that could lead to a challenge that the owner is unable to cope with and remain uninjured needs to be avoided. Not only does it run the very real potential to injury, it also runs the very real potential to worsening the dog's behaviour and ongoing attitude.

This is why good behaviourists tend to avoid prescribing over the net. They recognise the reactions that are possible (not suggesting on "liklihood") in what others might perceive to be even the mildest of leadership interactions.

It is also why merely reading books and applying the strategies taken from them to just any dog is not necessarily a wise thing to do. Books can be a good back-up to helping people learn to understand dogs at a general level, but beyond that the giving of advice should equate to experience and in matters such as this, to having observational knowledge of the dog AND owner.

I'm not confident of the strategies that Carp has been advised to adopt either. But I don't know Carp nor her relationship with her dog, so that prohibits me from drawing conclusion or making specific comment.

Carp - if you are not confident that you possess the assertiveness required to manage your dog's behaviour there is no shame in returning her to her breeder. But if you want to persue this further one more time by having your relationship with your dog re-assessed and good advice/opinion given, then return here and perhaps recommendation to a known reputable behaviourist can be made.

Edited November 29, 2007 by Erny

[4leggedvariety]

So I agree with PF and Erny that the food thing may be confrontational and in hind sight better left out. Carp has 2 options, return the dog and start again or work at the problem. How else is Carp going to implement leadership skills required? He or she has done all the right things so far, recognised the problem early and seek professional help at 4 months of age and has spent a huge amount of money for advise that has not helped so far.

How can he/she find somebody to give him/her the right advise without breaking the bank?

[Erny]

How can he/she find somebody to give him/her the right advise without breaking the bank?

... perhaps recommendation to a known reputable behaviourist can be made.

So I agree with PF and Erny that the food thing may be confrontational ....

4Legged - with some dogs in some relationships and in certain circumstances, even "ignoring" can raise a challenge.

Edited November 29, 2007 by Erny

[JulesP]

I would actually like to know if the pup is biting as in biting and meaning it and drawing blood type biting or is she nipping?

Without seeing the pup she sounds like she has a high herding drive. Dislikes joggers and chases cars.

My mum's sheltie used to do a far bit of herding type nipping and lots of poking with her nose, lol. Annoying but different from biting.

[bridgie_cat]

My major concern is I purchased the pup with the express intent of competing in agility trials – she is fast and agile but the vet said she is unlikely to take direction.

This is an odd thing to say on the vets part. Did either behaviouralist express this concern? IMO that means you have to train it differently - make it worth her time to listen to you... obviously becoming the leader of the pack with this dog would be a priority. But I would think that if you can find something she wants (be it toy or extra good food etc) then you should be able to work from there and fade the rewards later on etc...

What has been your experience with her ability to learn and follow instructions up until now? Have you done any training with her yet? Also factor in that puppies ARE going to be badly behaved...

But all this is beside the point if she is messing with the family dynamic and not getting on with your other dogs etc... If you definitely do not want to persevere with the prob/or dont see it improving with respect to the other dogs - then the breeder is the person to either: take the dog back as she has expressed an interest in showing her OR is a good person for her to go to to be rehomed to another family (as often the breeder will have a waiting list, will know who to talk to and will know what to look for in a suitable home for the individual dog etc)

Is it dominance biting or fear biting?? She bit you and ran to the car? sounds like fear... and being small she could be biting other dogs as a way to get them to back off (this being with other dogs - not your own)... just a thought...

I think as they grow up you get a period of challenging for the top dog spot... but once she claims the title she should settle down towards your other dog - if this is all it is...

eta - also interested to know what sort of biting it is... my sheltie can be right in the face of other dogs: barking, growling, pulling fur, mouthing/nipping (but not biting) - she loves it - but it is definitely herding behaviour...

Edited November 30, 2007 by bridgie_cat

[jesomil]

As everyone has said, it sounds like you and the pup are not matched with temperaments. The pup needs a strong leader.

In someone elses hands who had a more natural dominant personality, the pups behaviour would be completely different.

As hard as it may be, it might be better for you both in the long run that you give the pup back and find another more suited to your personality so you can continue with your goals of agility etc.

[CP*]

Thanks for al the comments they have been really helpful. Sorry I had to go off line. I received a complaint in the mail today about the dogs so I really need to act on this.

Carp,I too question the advice you have been given!!!Did anybody mention fear aggression and or poor leadership? Tony

When I first got her she had fear aggression and that's what I thought it was when I brought the behaviourist in. But he noted the tail is up, body erect and she leans toward the person/dog and bares teeth.

Carp, I live in Canberra and to the best of my knowledge there are NO qualified veterinary behaviouralists here. There is one who visits from Sydney but that is all. Is that who you saw?

...

If you are not a naturally assertive person, I'd honestly recommend you cut your losses and return this girl. In the right hands, she might well make an excellent sports dog but it is absolutely no fun at all to have to work with a dog that simply doesn't suit you, your personality or your other dog's character. I can quite confidently predict that, without qualified and experienced intervention, what you are seeing now is only going to get worse.

...

Listen to your gut... Dog ownership isn't meant to be all heart ache Carp, it should also bring you joy. There is also the impact on your other dog to consider. Are they the same sex?

The vet behav I am seeing is Sandra Hassett at the Animal Medical Centre in Phillip. I'm fairly strong with my dogs - I believe they should see me as their master, they are confined to parts of the house, dont get on furniture, wait at doors and for food, I control toys. But with a dominant dog Dr Hassett said even this is not enough and it is just not me to adopt a harsh regime with a pet. I would have got a Rottweiller instead of a Sheltie if I wanted a challenge.

But I agree a pet should bring joy, and a lot of the time she does. When the two dogs play and when she sleeps. But I am getting to hate going out walking and I usually love walking.

I find the new book by 'The Dog Whisperer Cesar Millan' called ' Be the Pack Leader' interesting read. A lot of people bagged him because he uses the 'Alpha Roll'. Forget about that and practise the other things. It is the 'Calm Assertive' energy you want to project and he is right, animals do respect that. Once your dog respects you, you will be able to influence her behaviour towards other dogs and people. As i said before, obedience training controls the body, not the mind. To be able to control the mind, the dog must accept that you are more dominant over her. Once established, you will be able tp stop unwanted behaviour by warning and a hard stare.

Good luck with her.

I have brought heaps of books and DVDs and downloaded every article I could find. I have got the new DVD by Cesar Milan, although I havent finished watching it I have to wait until the dogs arent around or it sets them off barking.

Carp sometimes the best thing for the dog is to go back to the breeder. In this case it does not sound as if this dog fits with what you are looking for, it does happen and she may be better off in another home.

Personally I find it very unusual for a 6mth old sheltie baby to be exhibiting this type of behavior. In 20 years plus of breeding I have never heard anything like it. Are you sure that it is dominance rather than fear?

I was really surprised too when I was told it was dominant aggression. But as Dr Hassett explained, if you put her on one of thise remote Shetland islands to guard a flock of sheep she would easily be the pack leader and would do fantastically. At the moment she is not pack leaders and probably will never be. My other dog just sits on her when he wants his way - he is twice her size - but she finds other ways to get around him (she is very smart).

I would actually like to know if the pup is biting as in biting and meaning it and drawing blood type biting or is she nipping?

It's a definate bite. She nips my legs all the time when we walk. Displaced aggression I think it is called. She bites dogs (and me once) but only nips people.

This is an odd thing to say on the vets part. Did either behaviouralist express this concern? IMO that means you have to train it differently - make it worth her time to listen to you... obviously becoming the leader of the pack with this dog would be a priority. But I would think that if you can find something she wants (be it toy or extra good food etc) then you should be able to work from there and fade the rewards later on etc...

What has been your experience with her ability to learn and follow instructions up until now? Have you done any training with her yet? Also factor in that puppies ARE going to be badly behaved...

She doesnt respond to food well and is not interested in toys except for her air Kong and balls (strange but true). She will follow instructions in class if people are watching and she wants them to be pleased - she responds to lots of praise. I also wondered whether she would get better as she gets older but the vet didnt think so.

This advice has made things a clearer. I still dont know what to do with the pup. Well, I guess I do, it would probably be better for us all for me to give her up I just have to build up the courage. But before I make a final decision I think this is what I will do.

- Have another consult with the vet behaviourist to clarify a few things. I might print off the comments (sanitised of course) to go through with her.

- call one more behaviourist to talk through options - Steve/k9?

- give the breeder an update and discuss options with her

- contact my body corporate this afternoon so I dont get kicked out of my house. At least they could give me the xmas period as most people in Canberra go away over Christmas.

[poodlefan]

Carp:

- call one more behaviourist to talk through options - Steve/k9?

I'll give an emphatic yes to that. Steve is who I recommend to any Canberran with a dog like yours.

ETA: Carp, I've been mulling over some of what you've discussed. A strong instinct to chase and nip moving objects/creatures suggests to me that you may have a dog with high prey drive - not unsurprising in a herding breed. Unfocussed and unharnessed, this can be a challenge in for an owner unused to dealing with it. I would recommend another good professional behaviouralist consult.

How much exercise does your pup get? Does she get the opportunity to romp offlead regularly.

Incidentally, the body language of aggression doesn't tend to differ between dominant and fear aggressive dogs all that much once the dog goes into aggression mode - its the motivation that differs and that's why you need expert help. My fear aggressive boy does a very impressive display of hard staring, teeth showing, lunging and snapping but it's not dominence that is motivating it.

Fear aggressive dogs learn that a preemptive show of aggression can drive off unwanted canine or human attention.

Edited November 30, 2007 by poodlefan

[bridgie_cat]

She nips my legs all the time when we walk.

Does she get very excited on the walks? Lana will run next to me and nip at my pant leg/hands etc if she gets over excited during a game or just fast pace heeling... it is nothing to do with aggression in this case - it is herding behaviour and her idea of a good game. A training issue if you want it to stop...

is not interested in toys except for her air Kong and balls

so use them in training!!!!! Balls are GREAT to use as motivational toys - esp for agility! But also in obedience... wait till she offers something you want (start easy like a sit) and then throw the ball! Moving toys can be great for building control + excitement for otherwise boring activities like stays or heeling...

[CP*]

She must know I am mad with her because she has been pretty good. Although she peed on the carpet tonight having been out this afternoon and been told be all and sundry how cute she was. She has done this before - peed or pood when we she has had lots of new admirers - marking I assume.

How much exercise does your pup get? Does she get the opportunity to romp offlead regularly.

Incidentally, the body language of aggression doesn't tend to differ between dominant and fear aggressive dogs all that much once the dog goes into aggression mode - its the motivation that differs and that's why you need expert help. My fear aggressive boy does a very impressive display of hard staring, teeth showing, lunging and snapping but it's not dominence that is motivating it.

Fear aggressive dogs learn that a preemptive show of aggression can drive off unwanted canine or human attention.

She gets about 40min in the morning and an hour or more in the evening. A few times a week we go to one of two ovals where she doesnt attack the other dogs. It surprised me initially that she was quite happy to just chase them when they were chasing the ball, but apparently this is usual for territorial dogs (she doesnt see this as her territory).

I do sometimes wonder if it is fear (although she is a confident pup and has starting marking). That is something I want to check with a behaviourist - whether the behaviour modification techniques are similar for dominance and fear or whether using techniques to deal with dominance would make fear aggression worse.

Does she get very excited on the walks? Lana will run next to me and nip at my pant leg/hands etc if she gets over excited during a game or just fast pace heeling... it is nothing to do with aggression in this case - it is herding behaviour and her idea of a good game. A training issue if you want it to stop...

Balls are GREAT to use as motivational toys - esp for agility!

She gets impatient on walks. The nipping happens when I prevent her getting at a dog/bird/person/car and keep walking. I am pretty sure she has a very strong herding instinct, which is why she loves her air kong so much. Its a donut and rolls mostly along the ground in different directions, better than a ball because she can chase it. Lately I show her I am putting it in my bag before we go for our walk - then she will sit nicely for me to put on her lead instead of ignoring me. She barks at me to hurry but she does tend to be so focused that when she sees another dog, I can get her under control fairly quickly. She at least hasnt tried to bite another dog since I have done this.

How would I incorporate it into training. She is so impatient to get the kong she would not do a whole training session for it. Do I get her to do a few drops then throw it?

[KittyKat]

I had a dominant Husky (8 years old), and have found some of the rescue dogs coming in with the nipping problems, the little one I have at the moment is 6 months old, would race into the lounge, jump up onto the lounge suite and nip at my son, kinda "hit and run" tactic

I also have had behaviourists come to help with me Husky and the fosters, but it wasn't until I started watching Cesar Millan that everything came together. Once I showed calm leadership, I had to do very little to get the required behaviour, little nipping puppy one week later, wouldn't dream of doing that again and looks to me for her guidance... all that and it didn't cost me a fortune for dog specialists... can't believe how simple it turned out to be.

Weird thing is that I use the same practise for controlling my horses, but didn't do it with dogs!

I'm in the ACT as well Carp, so probably used the same dog behaviourists.

[bridgie_cat]

How would I incorporate it into training. She is so impatient to get the kong she would not do a whole training session for it. Do I get her to do a few drops then throw it?

Susan Garrett's "shaping success" is a book I highly recommend. She deals with a CRAZY border and does a lot of control stuff with him...

To incorporate the kong: Start SMALL!!! Ask for a sit... she sits CALMLY - you throw the kong! Build this up to a few sits or a sit and a drop and any other trick she knows... and then she gets the treat!

Will she bring it back to you? As then it becomes a few tricks, throw the kong, back to training etc...

Now - once she knows she does tricks to get what she wants (the kong) - build it into walks or anything else you want her doing... if she is being crazy... just wait - or move away from what is making her silly... when she is calmly doing what you want (walking on lead perhaps) - tell her how good she is and have a game with the kong!

The idea is that you DONT reward her when she is crazy - dont punish - just ignore... she can only earn her kong if she is doing so sensibly... and again, only ask for a little bit of quiet at first so she gets the idea of WHAT you want... then build on it!

Many examples will be dogs going crazy and pulling their owners toward the park or the beach barking like mad etc... if she has an AIM with her craziness... then the idea is that you ONLY move forward (towards the reward) when they are quiet... if they are barking - stop... wait... they should work out reasonably soon that if they want to get to that place then the only way to get there is silence... so in this scenario, moving forward is the reward... but if she has no goal such as this, then you reward her with the kong!

[poodlefan]

Intially Carp you reward every request with the motivator.

Then you move to a random reward schedule. You also raise the standard of behaviour required reward every request.. eg. she gets it for fast sits, not just any sits.

You also extend the duration of training before rewarding. The aim is to reward in a manner that the dog works not knowing when the reward will come but getting it often enough to maintain focus and willingness to work.

No point in training using any reward the dog doesn't really want.

[persephone]

just a thought..you said she is urinating more/marking... is she possibly coming in season?

may be worth a check...IMO it will certainly make for interesting behaviour changes

[CP*]

just a thought..you said she is urinating more/marking... is she possibly coming in season?

may be worth a check...IMO it will certainly make for interesting behaviour changes :D

OMG, I've only had 3 male dogs, I dont know the signs of estrus. She hasnt been bleeding - better check with the vet, but he did say last month she was very immature.

On Sunday the pup chewed a lighter and had an emergency vet visit to pump in fluids. Luckily she's okay, just a sore tummy. She's living like a queen - vet said to give her chicken and rice for the week - which she loves. So she has been sitting without asking - guess I should ask her to drop.

She has also been very clingy since coming home from the vet. She only spent the day in there but she hasnt gone outside (except with me) and has been following me and showing her tummy for pats. This is a dog that spends most of her time outside. The vet said there was no anxiety when the pup was there and she played happily with the nurses. When I went to the vet hospital to get the pup she would not come to me at first but when I ignored her she literally leapt out of the nurses arms and licked my face in a frenzy. So perhaps she is not as independent as she likes to make out she is. And maybe I can use that to my advantage.

Needless to say, with the weekend incident I haven't had time to think about what I am doing.

[poodlefan]

How did you go sorting out the barking complaint Carp?

[CP*]

How did you go sorting out the barking complaint Carp?

I read here what someone else said about complaints and so I asked for more details about the complaint and told them I have consulted a dog behaviourist. I also said I believe there was another dog causing problems in the area and this needs further investigation.

There is a woman who brings her particulaly vicious rescue cattle dog to my next door neighbours wire fence to 'socialise' with my neighbours two Labs but it tries to attack the Labs. I asked her a couple of months ago to stop because it upsets my dogs but she keeps doing it. So perhaps my dogs are not at fault because there is something genuinely scary on the other side of the fence. My boy now goes silly when the older Lab barks, for whatever reason. Perhaps it isnt Tully, but this unsocialised dog that wants to rip the throat out of their pal next door that's unsettling him.

So I'm going to find out this woman's address and go over myself to speak to her myself. The complaint annoys me a bit. The people most affected have all been very understanding as Tully tends to choose her victims from amongst friends and I have a neighbour on only one side of my property. The dogs are in at 9pm and dont go out until 7.30am. I would be surprised if the people over the road had that good hearing. So the complainant was probably someone walking past my back fence. At any rate, it is unfair to expect me to respond without providing me with details.