What To Do With Dominant Aggressive Pup

[CP*]

I have a 6mth old female Sheltie which has been diagnosed as having significant dominance aggression by 2 behaviourists. While her behaviour improved somewhat after the 1st behaviourist, it is still a problem. The vet behaviourist I saw today (recommended by RSPCA instructor who knows Shelties) said the pup is very independent and not to expect big changes.

My other Sheltie is becoming more and more edgy in response to her behaviour. The vet said only a very experienced trainer could deal with the problem with another dog around. At the moment I spend over 4hrs a day walking the dogs seperately.

My major concern is I purchased the pup with the express intent of competing in agility trials – she is fast and agile but the vet said she is unlikely to take direction.

Aside from this she is a beautiful little girl and I love her dearly and the two dogs play together really well.

I am in a dilemna so here are my questions. Do really dominant dogs do okay in showing? The breeder has indicated a willingness to take her back for showing (I dont want to do showing). Should I give her back?

I don’t want to delay a decision. Keeping her could be worse for my other dog and might drive me nuts, but if I give her up I would feel like I let her down.

Advice?

[petmezz]

the breeder would be looking at her structure more then her personality, if the breeder is experianced enough to take her back they should be able to do the best thing for the dog, be it showing or rehome to an only dog family.

may i ask what training are you doing with the dog and what motervaters are you using???

[Miranda]

Are we talking dominance/aggression towards other dogs, humans or both, what does your dog actually do, can you be more specific?

[BJean]

I am in a dilemna so here are my questions. Do really dominant dogs do okay in showing? The breeder has indicated a willingness to take her back for showing (I dont want to do showing). Should I give her back?

I don’t want to delay a decision. Keeping her could be worse for my other dog and might drive me nuts, but if I give her up I would feel like I let her down.

IMO dominant bitches make great show girls because of their bravado, and will often prance in the ring and have the 'look at me' presence of the males.

It reads as if the two if you are not the best match personality wise.

I don't know how independent/dominant shelties get

but generally the bidability of a dominant and independent dog depends upon its relationship with its handler/owner.

At only 6 months of age, to have a final diagnosis of "significant dominance aggression" sounds a little premature.

How long has she had issues?

If this pup were one of mine, from the provided information

I WOULD TAKE HER BACK

under the two assumptions:

Either: the dog has a neurological problem

or

the dog has not been raised in a way that suits the dog's outlook.

In any case, I think your dog would benefit from going back to her breeder

[CP*]

She has done puppy classes and obedience classes since she was 8 weeks old and done fairly well. I spend a lot of time with both dogs to train them and have had 3 Shelties before. I use mainly food as a motivator plus now on the behaviourists advice she gets things withdrawn if she misbehaves. Her favourite thing is her air kong so she only gets to play with it if she behaves. She doesnt respond to clickers and I have just ordered a retractable target stick to see if she responds to the ball at the end as she likes balls.

Her main dominance is directed towards other dogs, barking, lunging and biting. But she also barks and tries to nip people who do not give her attention, and she hates joggers. Plus she throws big dummy spits when she gets told off. She has bitten me once but that was at the side of the road and she becomes hysterical around cars.

The breeder says she has an excellent shape and beautiful face for showing. She is very small and cute and the problem is a lot of people come up and want to pat her and I am worried she will bite someone. Luckily I have known all the owners of the dogs she has bitten and as she is small, they have not made an issue of it.

[BJean]

She has done puppy classes and obedience classes since she was 8 weeks old and done fairly well. I spend a lot of time with both dogs to train them and have had 3 Shelties before. I use mainly food as a motivator plus now on the behaviourists advice she gets things withdrawn if she misbehaves. Her favourite thing is her air kong so she only gets to play with it if she behaves. She doesnt respond to clickers and I have just ordered a retractable target stick to see if she responds to the ball at the end as she likes balls.

Her main dominance is directed towards other dogs, barking, lunging and biting. But she also barks and tries to nip people who do not give her attention, and she hates joggers. Plus she throws big dummy spits when she gets told off. She has bitten me once but that was at the side of the road and she becomes hysterical around cars.

The breeder says she has an excellent shape and beautiful face for showing. She is very small and cute and the problem is a lot of people come up and want to pat her and I am worried she will bite someone. Luckily I have known all the owners of the dogs she has bitten and as she is small, they have not made an issue of it.

Carp, it sounds like your sheltie girl is running rings around you

IMO and independent natured dog is not really going to care if you 'withdraw' something it likes. What if the enjoyment derived from doing 'wrong' things, is more than the enjoyment derived from the air kong? Doing what she likes (inlcuding nipping you to put you in your place) will win every time.

[BJean]

She has done puppy classes and obedience classes since she was 8 weeks old and done fairly well. I spend a lot of time with both dogs to train them and have had 3 Shelties before. I use mainly food as a motivator plus now on the behaviourists advice she gets things withdrawn if she misbehaves. Her favourite thing is her air kong so she only gets to play with it if she behaves. She doesnt respond to clickers and I have just ordered a retractable target stick to see if she responds to the ball at the end as she likes balls.

Are you sure the dog is associating the 'missing air kong' with the unwanted behaviour?

okay, so you started training at 8 weeks - when did problems begin necessitating the intervention of a behaviouralist?

Edited November 29, 2007 by lilli

[JulesP]

What do you want to do Carp?

[Kavik]

Where are you located? Kaos, my Kelpie, exhibited some of these behaviours (doesn't tolerate dominant dogs, barked at people who didn't give him attention, lunged at cars and bikes) when he was about 9 months. I went to see K9 Force, a behaviourist on this list, and after a session where we dealt with leadership and confident handling most of these have stopped. I still have to watch him around dominant/reactive dogs but he is getting better.

[Lablover]

I don’t want to delay a decision. Keeping her could be worse for my other dog and might drive me nuts, but if I give her up I would feel like I let her down.

Advice?

Carp,

Bearing in mind you have reared this youngster and have obtained two opinions, and if the breeder is happy to take her back, and you have another dog you are concerned about.......you know what is best, in your heart.

More than a few tears will be shed, but as you purchased this dog for agility competitions, it is not fair on you, or your other dog to delay any further.

The long and short of it, is you have to do, what some consider selfish. I certainly do not!!!

If you keep the problem sheltie, you in time will leave it more and more at home, while concentrating on your other, travelling to training and trials. Weekends away etc.

You already spend 4 hours a day concentrating on this dog, training?? You deserve a medal!!!

Good luck to you.

[4leggedvariety]

carp,

what did you do when your pup bit you? what have the 2 behaviourists advised you to do so far?

training commands in a sense gives you control of the dog's body, not his mind. If your personality is that you are better suited to a more obliging character, then I think is better to return her.

[Cosmolo]

Has the training you've attempted been only of a positive nature? Have appropriate corrections been tried? Are they veterinary behaviourists you have consulted?

[CP*]

Thanks for all your comments they are really helpful

IMO dominant bitches make great show girls because of their bravado, and will often prance in the ring and have the 'look at me' presence of the males.

It reads as if the two if you are not the best match personality wise.

I don't know how independent/dominant shelties get

but generally the bidability of a dominant and independent dog depends upon its relationship with its handler/owner.

At only 6 months of age, to have a final diagnosis of "significant dominance aggression" sounds a little premature.

How long has she had issues?

If this pup were one of mine, from the provided information

I WOULD TAKE HER BACK

under the two assumptions:

Either: the dog has a neurological problem

or

the dog has not been raised in a way that suits the dog's outlook.

In any case, I think your dog would benefit from going back to her breeder

She does do much better in obedience class than outside because she loves to perform. You are probably right in that I do not have a dominant enough approach to deal with such a dominant dog and it is hard to balance a dominant dog with a placid dog - at least for me.

okay, so you started training at 8 weeks - when did problems begin necessitating the intervention of a behaviouralist?

I first brought in a behaviourist at 4 months when she started biting other dogs.

What do you want to do Carp?

So far I have taken the easy way out and kept on with seeing behaviourists. The hardest decision is to give her up. And if I give her back I want to make sure I have done everything I can.

Where are you located?

I'm in the ACT. The vet is giving me a couple of books on leadership behaviour for dealing with dominant dogs. She has also recommended having someone else look after my other dog while I deal with the pup. I'm not sure I want to try a third behaviourist - the vet is good and I need to make a firm commitment (plus I have spent close to $2,000 on them so far).

carp,

what did you do when your pup bit you? what have the 2 behaviourists advised you to do so far?

When she bit me I was so surprised I let go of the leash and she ran off after the car. Luckily I have a collection of strange noises to get the dogs attention in an emergency. When she bit the dogs I grabbed her muzzle. The first behaviourist told me the standard things about desensitising, running away when we saw another dog/person, gentle leader, not talking to her, making her wait for food, only 5 minutes of play a day, reducing walking time, no ball games. The new behaviourist recommends solo walks with a citronella collar trying to avoid dogs, limiting exposure to things she can dominate, limiting shows of affection and not letting strangers pat her, limiting access to the house and yard and a number of dominance things. I had to apply the first behaviourists actions to the other dog as well and he was most upset about being ignored. This time I do not have to apply all the strategies.

Also lablover. I have already had to travel with the other dog and the pup hates it. I either have to race back home or if I leave her with someone else when I come home they are all stressed because of her behaviour.

[Cosmolo]

While its very difficult to tell online, i have to say that the behaviourists strategies don't sound great to me. 5 minutes of play a day and no ball games with a dog that is likely to have at least some drive, citronella collars etc.. I have a sheltie client at the moment who had also been through two behavioural trainers (not veterinary behaviourists) before i met her and while the dog has been a challenge, we have certainly had good results with a few different techniques.

What are the qualifications of the people you have seen so far?

[Poodle wrangler]

I get the impression from your posts that you've made an effort with this dog, but aren't confident that you will ever be a good "match" for each other.

Some dogs-owners are ill-suited. That she doesn't get on with your other dog is an additional problem. All parties are stressed.

I don't think there's any shame in returning a dog to a breeder after seeing a behaviourist and making a genuine effort as you seem to have done.

[percyk]

ooh Carp i sympathise and empathise

we made the decision to give back a gorgeous black standard poodle youngster many years ago

bought as a pet for my young son...he was totally unsuitable...very dominant ..,

we brought in a behaviourist..a lovely lady ...who owned and bred poodles herself and she convinced us after spending an afternoon observing and interacting with the dog that he was not going to be a reliable pet

we took him back to the breeder ..no problem...he was supposedly then heading off to the showring..breeder didnt seem too concerned about his attitude so i didnt feel too badly in the end...

its a hard decision ..but that dog of yours ( love shelties and have only come across very sweet biddable ones or the little nervous ones that disappear under the couch!)...that dog of yours will be part of your life for a long time..

if its going to be very difficult..id be taking it back

[Tonymc]

Carp,I too question the advice you have been given!!!Did anybody mention fear aggression and or poor leadership? Tony

[poodlefan]

Carp, I live in Canberra and to the best of my knowledge there are NO qualified veterinary behaviouralists here. There is one who visits from Sydney but that is all. Is that who you saw?

I think you've been dealing with trainers who have some knowledge but between you, me and the gatepost, based on what you've said I'd really question some of the strategies you've been given to work with this dog. None of them seem to be focussed on establishing you as the leader in this relationship. It seems to be all about damage control, not relationship building. Frankly, I think you've gotten a lot more dog than you bargained for and she needs some very clear direction on what is, and what is not acceptable behaviour.

If you are not a naturally assertive person, I'd honestly recommend you cut your losses and return this girl. In the right hands, she might well make an excellent sports dog but it is absolutely no fun at all to have to work with a dog that simply doesn't suit you, your personality or your other dog's character. I can quite confidently predict that, without qualified and experienced intervention, what you are seeing now is only going to get worse.

I know someone who got a poodle very very similar to your girl in nature. It's never been easy for her to manage him and she simply never had the heart to enforce the kind of rules he needed to respect her. He sent her to the hospital for 20 stitches a few years back - she loves him to death but he's simply a more dominant personality than she can deal with. I actually think that she's more than a little frightened of him at times. He is also seriously dog aggressive to dogs he doesn' know.

ETA: As Convenor of Agility at the ACT's largest training club, I can tell you that a dog with unmanageable dog aggression issues is most unlikley to be accepted for training because it will not pass our intake test. I'd hate to see your dream of agility competition buried before you start training.

Listen to your gut... Dog ownership isn't meant to be all heart ache Carp, it should also bring you joy. There is also the impact on your other dog to consider. Are they the same sex?

Edited November 29, 2007 by poodlefan

[Erny]

PF writes a very good post, Carp. I've also PM'd you.

Erny

[4leggedvariety]

Carp,

I don't mean to sound arrogant, but $2000 for the advise you have been given is way over the top. All those info can be obtained from a book. I really wondered what sort of dog handling experience these behaviourists have or they learn everything from a book.

If you look at a pack of dogs and there is an issue over somethng, one will bite another (or growl ) if it perceives it to be more dominant and not the other way round. I know a lot of these behaviourists tend to avoid the word 'Dominant' at at cost. They see it as a very nasty word. It conjures up the image of 'Aggression', but in fact it is the right description. It is more an attitude than anything else. To be able to control your dog's behaviour, you have to be seen by the dog as the more dominant one, no ifs and buts. Physical confrontation is not necessary, is all in the mind.

I don't think one can solve issues of dominance(either with you or other dogs) without re-establishing a new rank structure between you & your dog. Remember, leader owns & dictates everything, & I stress everything. There is no democracy, but it is done in a calm manner. Aggression is not in the equation.

Something you may want to try to do to re-establish that leadership role:

- put some food in a closed container and put in on the ground. If your dog is dominant over you, it most likely will dive for it. Instead of using 'obedience' commands like 'Leave'. I would use body blocks to block acesss to the food. Step in to stop your dog everytime so it can't get at it, at the same time look the dog in the eye, say nothing, stand tall, chest out as if to say' This food belongs to me, you stay away. Your dog may growl at you, say nothing, stand your ground, and keep on looking it in the eye. You want your dog to back away by itself and you take the container & claim it. Don't reward her with food. It is your right to claim the food.

-at doorways, instead of telling it 'sit stay' , again use your body to block your dog from exiting before you do until she hangs back voluntarily, say nothing, look at her out of the corner of your eye then you go first and give her permission to enter or exit. Do that everytime you leave & return after a walk. No rewards given, is the leader's right to enter & exit first.

-on your walks, walk her at heel all the time to start off with a short loose lead, do not allow her to lead out in front of you and dictates where to go. Make her follow where you go, you set the pace, sometimes walk slow, sometimes fast, everything is your decision and you go where you want to go. Do not let her sniff unless you have given her permission to do so. Don't worry about avoiding other dogs. If you see one, walk past it, you stick your chest out and ignore the other dog and ignore what your dog does. If people want to pat her, just say to them she is not friendly.

- be more aloof, especially when you return home after work or after separation from her. enter the house and ignore her as if she is not there. After a while you call her over to say hello, don't make her centre of attention.

- continue to teach commands using reward based training

- everything given to the dog has to be seen as a privilege, must be earned, even getting into or out of the car. not allowed until you give permission

-put away all toys, nothing belongs to her. She gets her exercise on walks, and scheduled play time & terminate on your terms.

I find the new book by 'The Dog Whisperer Cesar Millan' called ' Be the Pack Leader' interesting read. A lot of people bagged him because he uses the 'Alpha Roll'. Forget about that and practise the other things. It is the 'Calm Assertive' energy you want to project and he is right, animals do respect that. Once your dog respects you, you will be able to influence her behaviour towards other dogs and people. As i said before, obedience training controls the body, not the mind. To be able to control the mind, the dog must accept that you are more dominant over her. Once established, you will be able tp stop unwanted behaviour by warning and a hard stare.

Good luck with her.