Pack Leader?

[Reddii]

I've always read about people being told to check their pack leadership status and thought - 'I know I'm the leader, don't have to worry about that'.......until last night. My 17 month BC Bitch got away from me at sheep herding and was a bit naughty with one of the sheep and took quite a bit of calming down (albeit it in only 15 secs or so).

Then I started thinking, is it a pack leadership issue and how do I tell if I am leader of the pack........

Reasons I think I am:

She will sit and wait for as long as I tell her to before touching her food.

She will leave anything I tell her to.

If there is trouble or potential for it she turns to me or hides behind me.

She will let me through the door first unless I tell her.

She is (usually) good at walking on a loose lead - EXCEPT WHEN SHE IS EXCITED.

Her recall is good, except when she is around sheep and a couple of other things - which is when I have to use another tone.

Reasons I'm not sure.....

See above.

At times if there is something more interesting than what we are doing eg: new agility club - must check out field, sheep, swimming opportunity - she will go an investigate and I have to get quite harsh (tonally - not volume) to get her back.

She will bark at me and tell me off when I make a mistake at agility.

If we are at the dog park playing ball I have to tell her twice to come back to me and she REALLY does not want to leave - but will. (harsh tone again)

Other things to consider - she is quite a shy, submissive dog until she gets to know someone and is then is quite sensible - OH and I are really the only ones she gets majorly excitable with. She is beginning to test the boundaries for the first time. There have been no changes in our household, except for the gradual increase in the workload of our 12 month old BC, but his has not impacted on her activity in any meaningful (to me) way.

She sleeps in her crate and goes there when she is told. She does not herd the cats inside the house, but wants to kill them if they are in our yard when I let her out of the house - neutral territory off lead - no problem. Neutral territory on lead - doesn't want to kill, but seriously wants to chase.

Aside from Sheep herding she does formal agility training once or twice a week, practices basic obedience (just because I want her to - she will heal off lead and could easily be CCD titled if I trialled), does flyball and is 98%reliable and ignores the othe dogs there and is pretty good at frisbee. If we aren't at training we are in the back yard practicing at least at night if not morning and night.

Long story short - how do I take stock of whether I am the pack leader and what should do to ensure it?

[Frieda]

I'm not an expert. But with my girls I make sure that I eat first before they do, I go through all doors and gates first before the dogs. They are invited up onto the couch and bed, never go up on their own instigation. When they bark and I don't want them to I tell them enough, and they stop, I am the protector not them. They all sit and wait for their food, until I release them with the word "eat". That is just the very basics that I do with the girls.

There is a book called Who's the Boss by Val Bonney. It is easy to understand and it may also help, I refer to it every now and again.

Hopefully someone will come along who is an expert with this on DOLers who can help you further.

[Reddii]

I'm not an expert. But with my girls I make sure that I eat first before they do, I go through all doors and gates first before the dogs. They are invited up onto the couch and bed, never go up on their own instigation. When they bark and I don't want them to I tell them enough, and they stop, I am the protector not them. They all sit and wait for their food, until I release them with the word "eat". That is just the very basics that I do with the girls.

There is a book called Who's the Boss by Val Bonney. It is easy to understand and it may also help, I refer to it every now and again.

Hopefully someone will come along who is an expert with this on DOLers who can help you further.

Thanks Frieda,

I think by most definitions I am the pack leader - they don't eat until they are allowed - I gave my boy a treat one morning, went inside, got a coffee back outside to find him standing staring at it because he had not been told to take it (poor little man!) . Sometimes before, sometimes after we eat, sometimes they don't eat - still no whinging. They do not jump on furniture unless invited and get off as soon as they are asked. They don't bark at the constant stream of people/dogs walking past the house - all the basics we have covered. If they are playing/fighting and I tell them to stop they do.

It's the other high drive situations where I find it challenging and question whether I am always top of the tree and whether there is an issue there or if it is just to do with more proofing and training.

Cheers.

Tony

[Janba]

From what I have learnt and experienced there are 3 times a dog tests pack position, approximately at the times when they reach sexual maturity, physical maturity and social maturity. Your girl would be at about the stage of physical maturity.

Now I don my flame suit. In my opinion and observations most dogs don't want to be packleaders, it isn't in their particular nature. Imagine in a pack situation if every member wanted to be alpha - it would be chaos, but there are dogs whose nature is to be dominant. From what I have observed and learnt over 30 years of being involved with dogs is that the biggest problems are where an owner doesn't assume leadership and forces a dog who would rather be led to take on the role of pack leader - it is very stressful for them.

Pack leadership is also not a dictatorship. I have often watched the bitch who is alpha of my dogs stand looking at one of the others who has something she wants - a bone or the best bed. They don't neccessarily give it to her or get up and she doesn't force them to as they seem to have a right to that thing while they possess it. On the other hand they will not stand beside her while she has a bone but wait at a respectable distance.

At times if there is something more interesting than what we are doing eg: new agility club - must check out field, sheep, swimming opportunity - she will go an investigate and I have to get quite harsh (tonally - not volume) to get her back.

She will bark at me and tell me off when I make a mistake at agility.

If we are at the dog park playing ball I have to tell her twice to come back to me and she REALLY does not want to leave - but will. (harsh tone again)

Also have you actually taught her that a recall in a nice tone means that you don't necessarliy have to obey instantly but a harsher tone does? The same with calling her at the park. You say you have to call her twice, so oin her mind is the second harsher command the one she has to obey? Barking when you make a mistake in agility could be frustration or confusion but is hard to tell withoout seeing it.

I've always read about people being told to check their pack leadership status and thought - 'I know I'm the leader, don't have to worry about that'.......until last night. My 17 month BC Bitch got away from me at sheep herding and was a bit naughty with one of the sheep and took quite a bit of calming down (albeit it in only 15 secs or so).

Herding is different to a lot of other disciplines as you are working with instinct. As Colin Webster puts it there are 2 types of dogs in herding, the gatherers and the killers (not literally) that follows on from the way a pack hunts in driving the prey to the waiting dogs or wolves to kill. This seems to be instinctive and nothing to do with dominance. My pup who is definitely bottom of the pack and quite a submissive dog is a killer. He had a bad dive in and grab when I first started him (and tried it regardless of who was working him). You gear you training to the type of dog you have and a good stop and out command work wonders. Dogs will also often try to grab or chase when you work them on their bad side as they find it harder and get frustrated.

[Reddii]

From what I have learnt and experienced there are 3 times a dog tests pack position, approximately at the times when they reach sexual maturity, physical maturity and social maturity. Your girl would be at about the stage of physical maturity.

Now I don my flame suit. In my opinion and observations most dogs don't want to be packleaders, it isn't in their particular nature. Imagine in a pack situation if every member wanted to be alpha - it would be chaos, but there are dogs whose nature is to be dominant. From what I have observed and learnt over 30 years of being involved with dogs is that the biggest problems are where an owner doesn't assume leadership and forces a dog who would rather be led to take on the role of pack leader - it is very stressful for them.

Pack leadership is also not a dictatorship. I have often watched the bitch who is alpha of my dogs stand looking at one of the others who has something she wants - a bone or the best bed. They don't neccessarily give it to her or get up and she doesn't force them to as they seem to have a right to that thing while they possess it. On the other hand they will not stand beside her while she has a bone but wait at a respectable distance.

At times if there is something more interesting than what we are doing eg: new agility club - must check out field, sheep, swimming opportunity - she will go an investigate and I have to get quite harsh (tonally - not volume) to get her back.

She will bark at me and tell me off when I make a mistake at agility.

If we are at the dog park playing ball I have to tell her twice to come back to me and she REALLY does not want to leave - but will. (harsh tone again)

Also have you actually taught her that a recall in a nice tone means that you don't necessarliy have to obey instantly but a harsher tone does? The same with calling her at the park. You say you have to call her twice, so oin her mind is the second harsher command the one she has to obey? Barking when you make a mistake in agility could be frustration or confusion but is hard to tell withoout seeing it.

I've always read about people being told to check their pack leadership status and thought - 'I know I'm the leader, don't have to worry about that'.......until last night. My 17 month BC Bitch got away from me at sheep herding and was a bit naughty with one of the sheep and took quite a bit of calming down (albeit it in only 15 secs or so).

Herding is different to a lot of other disciplines as you are working with instinct. As Colin Webster puts it there are 2 types of dogs in herding, the gatherers and the killers (not literally) that follows on from the way a pack hunts in driving the prey to the waiting dogs or wolves to kill. This seems to be instinctive and nothing to do with dominance. My pup who is definitely bottom of the pack and quite a submissive dog is a killer. He had a bad dive in and grab when I first started him (and tried it regardless of who was working him). You gear you training to the type of dog you have and a good stop and out command work wonders. Dogs will also often try to grab or chase when you work them on their bad side as they find it harder and get frustrated.

Thanks Janba - you are right, I have taught her that she has two opportunities, although just this morning we had a break through and she came back with the 'nice' call first time despite wanting to play more frisbee.

Interesting to see you quote Colin Webster - we are going to his clinic in a week or so. I definitely have one killer (and one gatherer thank goodness), although by the sounds of it not to the same extent as you do as 90% of the time it is pretty easy to keep her off the sheep and/or get her to stop. Out is something we are yet to work on. Xena will grab/chase on either side at this stage if I'm not on top of her or if she gets excited - guess it's just going to be more work.

I think Monday night just rattled me more than anything. She is usually so good I expect it to go well all the time and get disappointed/upset when it doesn't all go my way! lol.

ETA - I think my leadership is about right the more I read and think about it - another example sprang to mind reading your post. when I pick up the dogs bowls they know it is time to be fed, but stay a 'respectful' distance away from me until I actually put the bowls down and tell them it is time to eat. I don't get hassled and they don't get all excited and silly.

Edited November 28, 2007 by Reddii

[ShellyBeggs]

I am no expert....

but over the years and different dogs I figured, no matter how much i think I am the leader....

practicing the NILF and now the triangle can't hurt!!!!

[Reddii]

I am no expert....

but over the years and different dogs I figured, no matter how much i think I am the leader....

practicing the NILF and now the triangle can't hurt!!!!

Haven't used the triangle, but NILF is definitely a rule my two know about and live by. Might be time to look at the triangle - all helps.

[Lil Miss LeiLani]

Try 'challenging' the dogs by staring at them - this will show who is leader !

When the dog becomes uncomfortable, it will start either licking its lips (not like a hunger type - but more just wetting!) or it will yawn - dont stop just keep staring in to their eyes - when the dog looks away, or even better, puts its head down - you have won.

Thats what we did with Zorro and the change is amazing.

[JulesP]

When I went to a sheep herding day the trainer was pleased at the end of the day to see Brock think about returning to me (it was like for 1 sec). I think he wanted to see the dogs want to be with the sheepies. The rest of the day he had been doing straight away recalls.

Doesn't sound like anything drastic is going on Reddii. Sounds like you have trained her to ignore the first come command though. Call her once and then go get her. Also don't call her if you can't get her or if what she is interested in is tooo exciting. You want to train to succeed.

Christal alot of obedience trainers want the dog to look into your eyes for focus etc.

[Guest LoveMyCuddledog]

I am no expert....

but over the years and different dogs I figured, no matter how much i think I am the leader....

practicing the NILF and now the triangle can't hurt!!!!

Hi

Could you pretty please explain more about both the NILF & triangle? I've never heard of either of these. My Triton boy has had a fairly dominant personality from the start & it's something I've tried to keep up the work with. At times with more success than others! Both myself & the cat eat before he does. He has to sit, wait & look at me calmly then wait for the come command before entering or exiting. He has to wait for the another command before running off at the park to sniff trees etc. He still barks at me if I stop to talk with someone but the sit & wait command are putting a stop to that to some extent. Basically the boy needs to learn some self-control. I also have to growl at him when he doesn't come the first time - what did you do differently to get your pup to come to you with the nice command? I find having control of the ball works wonders!

Ciao

[Guest LoveMyCuddledog]

When I went to a sheep herding day the trainer was pleased at the end of the day to see Brock think about returning to me (it was like for 1 sec). I think he wanted to see the dogs want to be with the sheepies. The rest of the day he had been doing straight away recalls.

Doesn't sound like anything drastic is going on Reddii. Sounds like you have trained her to ignore the first come command though. Call her once and then go get her. Also don't call her if you can't get her or if what she is interested in is tooo exciting. You want to train to succeed.

Christal alot of obedience trainers want the dog to look into your eyes for focus etc.

Ah great. So my calling him when he's already on his way back is a good thing?

[Reddii]

Doesn't sound like anything drastic is going on Reddii. Sounds like you have trained her to ignore the first come command though. Call her once and then go get her. Also don't call her if you can't get her or if what she is interested in is tooo exciting. You want to train to succeed.

The more I think about it the more I know you are right. Monday night did rattle me as I've never had that sort of problem before, although with the benefit of hindsight can see it has been coming. WRT her coming back, once I had her working properly again there is not problem with recall, it's only when the whole psycho drive thing kicks in we have a problem.

I am going to work on recall from basics and then constantly proof it in progressively more stimulating environments.

[ShellyBeggs]

You can read about the triangle at the top of the training/obedience/dog sports forum....its a pinned topic!

NILF....nothing in life is free.

The dog doesn't get a pat, food or a treat or anything at all unless it does something to earn that privledge. Consistancy is the key and getting everyone in the family to follow the rules can be tough......but the dog learns that it relies on you for everything and that it only gets what it wants/needs by giving you the required behaviour.

for example my dogs don't get a pat until they have calmed down and are laying on their bed, then I call one at a time for "cuddle time" if the other dog gets up then it has to start the process over again, and has to go back calmly and wait. It doesn't get the reward by getting up, by being out of a calm state or by pushing. SO the rule at my house is the leader will pat who the leader wants to and when the leader wants to and only being calm and patient will earn that right.

Its tough, but there has been many a night my kelpie has gone without cuddle time because he will not follow the rule.

Guaranteed the next night he is the first in the door and on his bed trying his hardest......because attention from the leader is a much sort after thing.....it is the ultimate prize to the member of the pack.

So its easy to bring NILF into your everyday life.....even just sit before a pat, drop before I throw the ball, wait before you eat your dinner, sit calm by the door to get your lead on for a walk.......etc.... Its easiest to pick the reward (cuddle time) and what you want the dog to have to achieve to earn it (wait calmly).

Many people will explain it better than me......and you can get some good info doing a google search!

[Guest LoveMyCuddledog]

You can read about the triangle at the top of the training/obedience/dog sports forum....its a pinned topic!

NILF....nothing in life is free.

The dog doesn't get a pat, food or a treat or anything at all unless it does something to earn that privledge. Consistancy is the key and getting everyone in the family to follow the rules can be tough......but the dog learns that it relies on you for everything and that it only gets what it wants/needs by giving you the required behaviour.

for example my dogs don't get a pat until they have calmed down and are laying on their bed, then I call one at a time for "cuddle time" if the other dog gets up then it has to start the process over again, and has to go back calmly and wait. It doesn't get the reward by getting up, by being out of a calm state or by pushing. SO the rule at my house is the leader will pat who the leader wants to and when the leader wants to and only being calm and patient will earn that right.

Its tough, but there has been many a night my kelpie has gone without cuddle time because he will not follow the rule.

Guaranteed the next night he is the first in the door and on his bed trying his hardest......because attention from the leader is a much sort after thing.....it is the ultimate prize to the member of the pack.

So its easy to bring NILF into your everyday life.....even just sit before a pat, drop before I throw the ball, wait before you eat your dinner, sit calm by the door to get your lead on for a walk.......etc.... Its easiest to pick the reward (cuddle time) and what you want the dog to have to achieve to earn it (wait calmly).

Many people will explain it better than me......and you can get some good info doing a google search!

Ah awesome. Wait quietly for dinner, sit calmly for the lead & to be let in for a walk(this one's a real struggle), and again at the front while I close the door & get myself organised (he's usually better by this time). Also sit & wait before being let off the lead for a run. He's definitely getting the knack of things but can't control himself no matter what in certain circumstances - such as when there's other dogs around he makes the weirdest noises when he wants to say hello. I have to admit though that I take this as a good sign that he won't dominate the dog so let him approach & then quickly use the ball to tempt him away again so the interaction is kept short & positive.

Ta muchly

[ShellyBeggs]

Ah awesome. Wait quietly for dinner, sit calmly for the lead & to be let in for a walk(this one's a real struggle), and again at the front while I close the door & get myself organised (he's usually better by this time). Also sit & wait before being let off the lead for a run. He's definitely getting the knack of things but can't control himself no matter what in certain circumstances - such as when there's other dogs around he makes the weirdest noises when he wants to say hello. I have to admit though that I take this as a good sign that he won't dominate the dog so let him approach & then quickly use the ball to tempt him away again so the interaction is kept short & positive.

Ta muchly

The boys have gone without a walk more than a few times because they won't sit and wait nicely to get their leads on (they hype each other up)....without calm sitting the leads get put away for 5-10 minutes......I only give them 3 chances and then its banned for the night.....so no walk.

Even my mum is amazed at how well they sit, head extended waiting for their chain and lead.....while her dogs almost turn inside out jumping around.

Dogs are very clever at working out what to do to achieve the best results!

[Guest LoveMyCuddledog]

I did the NILF with the boy last night. It took ages for him to stop whining but he got the hint eventually. Then after walking on lead for about 30 minutes we headed towards the park where we used this with his fetching. The boy wasn't at all impressed with this to the point where he chucked a dummy spit - up on his back feet, lunging, twisting & eventually gripping my wrist with his teeth but I didn't give him what he wanted. I waited until he was sitting calmly (which he did quickly after the bite) and then let him go with a "YES! OK!". After that he was quickly adapted to this new aspect of his favourite game.

We also practiced the TOT last night. It went really well - he sat quietly initially staring at the food but took a couple of quick glances at me to which I responded with a "yes!" then I think he realised what I wanted & ignored the food looking at me calmly instead. This all happened within about... 3 minutes perhaps? Good dog! At one point he backed off from his food looking at me from out of the corner of his eye so I gave him another ok & then backed off a bit. After this I went back inside to have another read through the instructions & realised that I had jumped in a couple of steps ahead of the start but it seemed to go well so we'll stick with this & see how it goes.

We did the TOT again this morning with his brekky-stuffed kong & he shaved about a minute off the time. I made the point of changing my position, moving around to his side while he was eating & was amazed when he picked up his kong & moved around so he could watch me.

Ah awesome. Wait quietly for dinner, sit calmly for the lead & to be let in for a walk(this one's a real struggle), and again at the front while I close the door & get myself organised (he's usually better by this time). Also sit & wait before being let off the lead for a run. He's definitely getting the knack of things but can't control himself no matter what in certain circumstances - such as when there's other dogs around he makes the weirdest noises when he wants to say hello. I have to admit though that I take this as a good sign that he won't dominate the dog so let him approach & then quickly use the ball to tempt him away again so the interaction is kept short & positive.

Ta muchly

The boys have gone without a walk more than a few times because they won't sit and wait nicely to get their leads on (they hype each other up)....without calm sitting the leads get put away for 5-10 minutes......I only give them 3 chances and then its banned for the night.....so no walk.

Even my mum is amazed at how well they sit, head extended waiting for their chain and lead.....while her dogs almost turn inside out jumping around.

Dogs are very clever at working out what to do to achieve the best results!

[percyk]

interesting post Reddii

i assume im pack leader and teach the kids to assert themselves too

but youre right...

there are so many times that you know youre not the leader...not the leader you want to be!

can you be a part-time leader? or leader when it really counts ?

most of my dogs are easy...easy going laid back...naturally biddable

typically they will hand over any toy or bone...they have good recall ( except for one but hes 'special' lol and getting better! but we knew what we were getting into!)

they exhibit that licking that seems to indicate that they are submitting

they roll over and look away

they stop any horseplay when commanded

theres a lot more to it...but i guess it depends on what you find acceptable..mine arent big dogs so its easier i find to live with them than a big dominant dog

still it will be an eye opener...this thread ..so thanks for posting!

[Reddii]

interesting post Reddii

i assume im pack leader and teach the kids to assert themselves too

but youre right...

there are so many times that you know youre not the leader...not the leader you want to be!

can you be a part-time leader? or leader when it really counts ?

most of my dogs are easy...easy going laid back...naturally biddable

typically they will hand over any toy or bone...they have good recall ( except for one but hes 'special' lol and getting better! but we knew what we were getting into!)

they exhibit that licking that seems to indicate that they are submitting

they roll over and look away

they stop any horseplay when commanded

theres a lot more to it...but i guess it depends on what you find acceptable..mine arent big dogs so its easier i find to live with them than a big dominant dog

still it will be an eye opener...this thread ..so thanks for posting!

It has been - a week on and I'm much calmer about it all again. It's been an interesting week and has really made me take stock of the way I train, not to mention differentiated the two dogs even further.

Xena is not a dominant dog, but is very exciteable and headstrong and will make her own (generally poor) decisions if allowed to. This week, at the suggestion of one of our trainers I have returned to physical correction similar to what she was first trained with, although on a flat collar, not a check chain. (not at agility and flyball, but walking and in our informal obedience practice). As a result she is more attentive and focussed on me at agility and flyball and her recall has been 100% without the harsh tone, even in the most exciting of environments. Around the house she is being more affectionate and staying with me more. While she wasn't a problem previously it seems to have made her easier to live with AND perform better in her work/sport.

CK on the other hand is a pleasure to live with and to date has not questioned my leadership at all, although he can be manipulative in his own soft way. (can't say he hasn't challenged Xena's pack position - OUCH!!). He shuts down at the prospect of a physical correction, let alone receiving one - all positive for this boy, with only the softest of verbal corrections needed to curb unwanted behaviour. (After speaking to his dad's owner who lives on the other side of the country this week it seems this is inherent in him.)

I think 'expectations or what you find acceptable' is the key to all of this. My expectations are sometimes too high of both myself as a very novice handler and my young dogs, but as a result I have two dogs I can take just about anywhere with no problems at all and who are very manageable in most situations. (eg - at flyball she doesn't pull and bark when the other dogs are going nuts, in fact I can stand there with here between my knees waiting calmly until I ask her if she wants to get her ball (on switch) and then the excitement kicks in - just have to proof that in other environments) When it comes unstuck like it did on Monday it really can dint the confidence I feed off. It just means more work for me and her in that environment.

Thanks to all for you answers and thought.