Obedience Dumbell Retreive

[Arya]

Okay, here's the method I like. Well, shoot me down if you don't but anyone whose seen my dog work with dumbell will tell you she loves it (apart from stupid handler me who throws dumbells into fence at trials and stuffs up lol). Take all other toys away temporarily. Get down the park. yep, here we go again, build drive. Forget the formal totally. Use the dumbell as a TOY. Forget clickers, marker words, whatever. Go for it like it is a stick. Run, make yourself move really fast, move your hands, arms and throw the dumbell. Race after it yourself if necessary. Act the fool. Get the dog so hyped they start to jump all over the place. Then don't worry about how the dog picks it up, just hope they pick it up. If they don't and they just stand there looking at it don't say anything bad and watch your facial expression, just run up and go GREAT, you didn't get it, I DID! I GET THE PRIZE YAY!!! Even get two dumbells and use them like the two food or two hose game. Make them toys. Treat them like sticks at the park or on the beach. This is actually a shortcut method. once the dog is reliably picking the dumbell up and running back to you, then start getting a LITTLE more formal. Have some food. Get the dog to front and swap for the food, instituting the word out or give at this point. This will NOT ruin the dog and make them never give the dumbell to you in trials, I promise. My girl can be a bitch and not want to give me things but she always gives the dumbell back. At the end of the day what you will have is a dog who RUNS full tilt back to you with the dumbell after rocketting out to get it. Not one who trots slowly back. Why? Because right from the 'first contact' with the dumbell it is seen as a fun item. Like a ball, hose, stick, tug, whatever. There is absolutely no need to make this article a formal article only imho. Make it high value. Make it toy of the century. But remember, it might take a few weeks to do this. It won't happen instantly, especially if you've been more formal in the past and it has 'serious' connotations for the dog.

PS, there's varying types of 'forced retrieve' as Tapferhund said. You don't have to be cruel to put something in your dog's mouth and hold it there for a second, then reward. This is a good method for teaching to hold the metal in UD too. It does work well and can be very gentle. The term FORCED RETRIEVE, doesn't fit it, I think. Maybe ENCOURAGED RETRIEVE. Forced retrieve with the ear pinch is a load of totally outdated crap in my opinion... sorry if this causes anyone offence.

I was lucky with my girl in that she always has liked to pick things up in her mouth... TOO MUCH, the bugger!!! lol

Anyway, give the fun toy method a go too if nothing else is working. You will find a way to get things going.

[Tapferhund]

Pax , what ARYA says here...........

"I DID! I GET THE PRIZE YAY!!! Even get two dumbells and use them like the two food or two hose game. Make them toys. Treat them like sticks at the park or on the beach. This is actually a shortcut method. once the dog is reliably picking the dumbell up and running back to you"

.......is exactly what we 'cruel forced method' trainers do .....once the dog reliably fetches/holds and gives the dumbell. ......and ohhh horror!! ....we use heaps of food and praise reward too ...during the "forced" part of teaching the exercise.

[PAX]

Pax , what ARYA says here...........

"I DID! I GET THE PRIZE YAY!!! Even get two dumbells and use them like the two food or two hose game. Make them toys. Treat them like sticks at the park or on the beach. This is actually a shortcut method. once the dog is reliably picking the dumbell up and running back to you"

.......is exactly what we 'cruel forced method' trainers do .....once the dog reliably fetches/holds and gives the dumbell. ......and ohhh horror!! ....we use heaps of food and praise reward too ...during the "forced" part of teaching the exercise.

Seeing as you have said you DON'T ear pinch, I am not sure what you're going on about :D but congratulations.

[jesomil]

Now I read that post and go and blindly have a go at torturing my dog because you have had sucsess with it??

I am saying torture as I have no clue what I'm doing. So do I just squeeze the crap of my dogs ear until it grabs the DB?

Wow, that is rather an emotive response.

How is the ear pinch any different from prong collars or check chains? They can all be misused and need appropriate training and experience to get the best out of them.

There are many methods of training dogs and i think all good trainers need to be open minded and to make claims only based on solid experience.

BTW, i have never used the ear pinch, nor do i know how, but there are trainers who i respect greatly who use it and get fantastic results.

[Arya]

Now I read that post and go and blindly have a go at torturing my dog because you have had sucsess with it??

I am saying torture as I have no clue what I'm doing. So do I just squeeze the crap of my dogs ear until it grabs the DB?

Wow, that is rather an emotive response.

How is the ear pinch any different from prong collars or check chains? They can all be misused and need appropriate training and experience to get the best out of them.

There are many methods of training dogs and i think all good trainers need to be open minded and to make claims only based on solid experience.

BTW, i have never used the ear pinch, nor do i know how, but there are trainers who i respect greatly who use it and get fantastic results.

I think it's all in how these things are used jesomil. The ear pinch, prong collar or check chain can all be used as corrections. That's the only time I personally think they should be used. As a correction for really unacceptable behaviour, just as a pack leader would in the wild. I personally DO NOT agree with the idea of using the ear pinch or even pressure from a prong collar, check chain, e-collar to teach a dog to do something. The use of 'negative reinforcement' in other words. Tools that can be used for positive punishment, that's where they should stay. They have a place imho, just not in teaching a dog to do something it does not understand. In other words, why start with a negative? It's not smart training imho. BUT, everyone has different training methods that work for them and Im not out to criticise anyone. We all love our dogs

[Lablover]

I gotta ask - teaching hold is cruel?

Confusion over 30 days in my mind is harsher.

What am I missing?

[Nova'sMum]

Hi Guys,

I'm a little confused here, I've never heard of the "forced method" before and the nomenclature sounds a little harsh, but the way I read it is that the "force" is in that you actually place the dumbell in the dogs mouth to teach it to hold as oposed to letting the dog take the dumbell of it's own accord. Is this correct? If that's the case, then I can see no cruelty in this method of training - without the ear pinch of course.

[Kavik]

People seem to be using the term 'force retrieve' for a few different ways of teaching retrieve here. Those using these methods please correct me if I am wrong. My understanding of the force retrieve is that it uses negative reinforcement - you use ear pinch/tight collar/ecollar and when the dog opens its mouth to accept dumbell you release the pressure. etc.

[Natsu chan]

Nova's Mum yep that's exactly it.

Kavik broadly speaking yes. I use the forced retrieve method too, all be it a modified version. I use light finger pressure on either side of the first vertebra, it's very light just to guide the head towards the dumbell. Collies although eager to please often seem rather baffled when it comes to retrieving. Once they get the idea that, yes I want you to pick this thing up in your mouth and carry it then it's not too much of an issue but getting the penny to drop even with a forced retrieve takes a little while. Collies are a herding breed remember and of the many we've had I've never come across one with any sort of retrieving drive. They just don't get why anyone would want to run out there and pick that thing up. You can see it on their faces "gees if you wanted it that badly why did you throw it away?"

The whole point of a forced retrieve is to make what you want completely clear to the dog, the idea being that the dog gets it right every time. That way there's never any miss understanding about what fetch means, it always means pick up the dumbell and bring it to me and hold it until I ask for it.

It's different strokes for different folks though what you find comfortable and what works for you is what's best. If it's not working then look at what you're doing and see if you need to modify it.

[JulesP]

I've got Brock to hold the dumbell and he will reach out and take it . If I hold it on the floor he will pick it up. I would like to get him to walk with it but he is really spitting the dummy about that! Any ideas?

[Natsu chan]

Jules will he hold it while he's siting?

I start in sit with mine. I slip the Dumbell in to their mouths while saying fetch then hold. If they do go to drop it I say "hold" and slip my fingers under the chin just hovering there to stop the dumbell being drawn out by gravity. Then the very moment before they get sick of holding it I grasp the dumbell with my left hand and say give and take the dumbell. Lots of praise interspersed and possibly a treat as well once you've taken it from them. A lot of it is timing, watch very carefully and you can see the moment when they're getting tired of holding it. It is an effort for them at first. Then progress from sit to stand to walking around. This is how I do it anyway.

My girl is in the early stages and will only walk 5 meters without thinking about letting it go. At first it needed my fingers hovering under her chin but now we don't need that just close observance. It takes patience and perseverance but you'll get there!

[JulesP]

He will hold it whilst not moving any attempt to move and he spits it out. If I hold gently under his chin he collapses on the ground. I have even tried doing turns on the spot and he still spits it out.

[Natsu chan]

Hmm he sounds challenging! I take it he's a soft dog? Koori is soft too and I certainly won't touch her chin unless it's to tickle it as a reward (she loves it!). Does he understand change position? I mean will he go from sit to stand? What does he do if you just hover you fingers under his chin without making physical contact?

If it was me I'd forget the dumbell for a few days and see if you can get him to sit and stand and change between the two while you tickle his chin. If he drops just get him to go back to the position he was in initially, and praise him when he's steady. Once that's fixed you'll have a way to keep his head up. You could try a treat to draw him into a stand but some dogs will just spit the dumbell out with even more force when you do that and a dumbell to the groin isn't much fun!

[4leggedvariety]

If the dog is holding the DB steady without help while sitting, the next step i do to get them moving without dropping DB is to get them to learn to keep its chin up moving just 1 step. This is crucial.

I go back to helping them understand what I want. I kneel down on my knees about an arm's length away, dog sitting holding DB. I place my left hand, palm up under dog's chin supporting it, with my fingers gripping onto the flat collar. This way I have control of the dog's head and its chin and I do a 'Come', gently guiding the come, making sure the dog only needs to get up from sit, move 1 step forward, and fit in front again with chin slightly up. Because I have control of its head, it can't spit the dummy so to speak and I guarantee he is successful and praise & reward. I will keep on doing this step and lessen the support until the dog can do it without any help from me at all. Be patient with this step, once the dog understands this and gets enough rewards, getting it to come from further will not be a problem.

I work until I can get dog to come with DB in mouth from a distance of a normal recall, then I get dog to do some short heeling with it, and come fore with it as well.