Obedience Dumbell Retreive

[Casima]

Hi all, I have been attempting to teach my BC x to retreive a dumbell, like for an obedince trial. I had been trying to teach it the same way I taught my GSD a few years back, but it doesn't seem to be working for this dog, my other learnt it in 1-2 short sessions... but I have been trying with my BCx for over a month and we just arn't progressing.

Here is what I have been doing... I have a clicker (dog knows that click means he gets a treat) and treats (which the dog really likes) and a plastic dumbell (which is the right size for my dog) and at first I held it in my hand level with his nose and just c/t when he touched it with his nose, that went alittle slow but was ok. To pregress past this I had to move the dumbell a bit to make it more exciting and also added a bit of a verbal cue "get it", and then he would sorta put his mouth on it, and I would c/t that, anyway we have gotten to a point where if I hold the dumbell in front of his nose he will sometimes reach out and hold it for a second or 2 (I keep hold of it still too, or if hes being really good I sorta let go so he has the weight of it, but I make sure I have hold of it before it drops, so it never drops. I click when he has held it for a short time but before I think hes going to drop it, trying to lengthen this time slowly) other times I have to jiggle it around a bit to get him to do that. I give tons of praise, and try to make it fun and exciting but he just doesn't "get" it. If I don't do anything to attract his attention to the dumbell, and he doesn't go to grab it immediatly after the last turn, he will just sit there stareing/smiling at me for several minutes, and eventually get bored and wander off. At this point in training I would expect him to sort of take it off me, and then I take it back, sort of passing it back and forth between us with him holding it longer and longer and me slowly moveing my hand down towards the ground for him to take it from, but this just isn't happening, heck he most of the time wont even go to touch it on his own even after being rewared for doing so over a long period of time.

I have also tryed a few other things mainly to make the dumbell more interesting/disirable rather than as an alternate training method... I have smeared alittle food on the dumbell, that only makes him want to lick it. I have tryed makeing the dumbell a great toy, throwing it up and catching it myself a few times to get him worked up, and then bowling it down the hall... sometimes he will chase it, and even pick it up and carry it part way back to me (I always c/t if he picks it up, and have tryed to extend that distance, I have him to a point where he often would carry it a few meters, but if I click he drops it to get food, and if I don't click he drops it and looses intest, and if I call him or say anything he drops it also.) I have tied a length of string to it so I could drag it along the ground to make it more interesting, which resulted in him herding it around the room... interesting to watch but not helpful. I have also tryed doing the training with a toy of his rather than the dumbell, but I can't get him to work with these either.

I find it strange, because all in all he is a smart dog, he is usually quick to learn new things. He is a very soft dog tho, and polite, so takeing the inititive to take something out of my hand might be a bit hard for him, but it doesn't look like hes trying to be polite when training, he just doesn't get it, which has me stumped because we have spent alot of time working on it over the last month or so. Hes an obsessive fetch player with balls and frisbees and also loves tug games, but he always drops his fetch toy if I reach a hand out to him, or talk to him. He is happy to play tug with me if I initiate it by waveing the toy around, but he wont do anything if I am just holding it still.

I am pretty much out of ideas and wondered if anyone had any suggestions... otherwise I think we will forget it for awhile and learn some other tricks, something more fun for both of us.

thanks guys

[JulesP]

lol, I am having the exact same problem with my border collie! Have also chatted to a couple of other border owners and same thing. Mine isn't even fussed with play retrieve. He will now run after the object but lays on it instead of bringing it back and will only do it a couple of times before he gets bored.

The only advice I have received is keep going with the process. Am doing it the same as you btw, clicking for a touch, then a mouth etc

[Ptolomy]

What does he do if you throw a ball or something other than a dumbbell - will he pick it up and hold it or bring it back?

[JulesP]

Mine doesn't. The most he does is go lay on it.

[Ptolomy]

Do you use food in training and have you heard of the two food game?

[Cala]

Persistance, Patience and Perseverence.............. It took me 20 months of hard work to get my boy to retrieve. Some dogs just don't naturally retrieve.

Hang in there,

Sue

[shihspaniel]

LOL that sounds so familiar... I am at exactly the same stage with Molly and it has taken about 3 months to get to the point where she will hold the dumbell in her mouth for just a few seconds. The trainers where we train have said to just be patient and persistant and to keep it in really short bursts, just offering the dumbell two or three times, maybe twice a day and to always finish on a success. I know it can be a bit frustrating, everything else has come so easily but this one is going to take time and work....

[ness]

Hmm it took Ness and I 18 months but she has a pretty nice retrieve now and its fairly reliable in the ring - hmm except she occasionally anticipates or spits the DB at my feet .

I will say though that I didn't have too many battles getting her to retrieve the various scent articles or gloves because we had worked hard at it.

Somebody suggested to me teaching a "formal" retrieve with a stuffed toy to start with if that is all she would hold.

[4leggedvariety]

You probably won't like to hear this, but I have trained 3 dogs to RELIABLY retrieve using the 'FORCED RETRIEVE'. One is a lab, then a cocker & now a poodle X. All have taken about 2 months from the very start to retrieving reliably in new grounds with varying distractions and apart from the lab, they are pretty soft dogs.

I prefer to show the dog what I want it to do, rather than let the dog figure it out himself. I always start off with the hold and backwards chain so none of my dogs will ever drop the dumbell before being asked to 'give', nor will they mouth the thing. I physically put the thing in the mouth and hold the mouth shout gently until 'give', then reward. Work towards dog letting me put the thing in its mouth and holding it himself until 'give. Then work on 'the present', meaning put DB in dog's mouth, dog holds it himself, then ask him to come, hold until 'give', always followed by reward after 'give'.

The last thing I teach is the 'Take' and I can freely tell you i use the 'EAR PINCH', which is negative reinforecement. Most people will be horrified at that. It is not something I teach people to do, but I do not hesitate to use it. The timing has to be spot-on and there should never be any negative emotion coming from the handler. All 3 dogs have not needed more than 3 pinches each to learn to reach for the DB. After that I can just hold their ear without pinching for them to learn to pick up from the ground, later from further away. The DB is not thrown until the dog can pick it up from a distance when I place it down without holding their ear. Every correct response is rewarded. The holding part is never a problem after the 'take', as it has already been trained.

Once they learnt that, all of them retrieve happily and reliably and you would not believe that there has been any negative reinforcements used. They understand that 'Fetch' means pick up this thing and bring it back and it transfers to other objects without any difficulties, whether it is thrown or not.

The lab & the cocker, being gundogs, have some retrieving instincts but the poodle X has none at all.

[PAX]

This is what shits me to tears, I have no idea how to force retrieve my dog.

(I would never do it anyway, ever, even if that meant never trialling)

Now I read that post and go and blindly have a go at torturing my dog because you have had sucsess with it??

I am saying torture as I have no clue what I'm doing. So do I just squeeze the crap of my dogs ear until it grabs the DB? What if I am giving it impossible options that it will never understand? What if my dog bites me, should I euthanase it? Maybe I should go with the choking method, surely lack of oxygen will make my dog hold the DB.

FFS, this is an internet training forum, only give safe advise.

[Tapferhund]

Yes Casima...like 4leggedvariety ...I do the Forced method too but minus the ear pinch bit (LOL).....the method is the best way to teach dumbell IMO and dogs taught this way are 100% reliable when retrieving............oh and it doesn't take 20 months or 18 months or even 12 months. If done properly it should take no more than 4 to 6 weeks !

[PAX]

4 to 6 weeks, well my dog had a solid play retrieve from the skills it had learnt growing up and playing with me, it took me 24 hours to teach a sit and hold the DB when I was taught how by a good trainer with no force.

[Tapferhund]

Geeez Pax, no need to carry on ! You don't know what's involved so why comment the way you have. You need to learn about the method and what is involved before canning it as cruel.

The method is not cruel in any sense of the word ......and the ear pinch is not part of it. I have trained several dogs with this most reliable method and never used an ear pinch and nobody I know, who also use the 'forced' method, has ever had to pinch their dogs ears either.

[Tapferhund]

Well bully for you Pax !

[PAX]

Tapferhund,

You say you have a forced retrieve that involves no ear pinching, So where is the force?

I am serious, I would love to know a way that does not cause the dog pain.

I have watched Dvds of how to teach a forced retrieve with an ear pinch and I could not do it, ever. I have also been told how to teach a FR with collar hold, choke, I do not like any of those methods.

I have only trained three dogs to retrieve, two had no desire to bring me the retrieve item and the third is my my new dog that had no desire to sit and hold. I have taught this with no force and I am a relatively new dog trainer. The first two dogs have been good trailling dogs and the third is yet to trial.

Do you think it's ok for someone to post on a public forum how to do this without one on one tuition? I certainly do not. I hope no one ever uses this method when there are other ways that are just as reliable if not more so, and fun for the dog to learn.

What ever floats your boat, I know I can sleep at night knowing that I have never hurt my dog, hopefully you can too.

[Kavik]

I also have issues with the retrieve. Diesel will happily take the dumbell from my hand, will reach for it, take it from ground and carry it around, come to me and sit with dumbell. But if I throw it he is very slow to go and get it. Often stops when he gets to it, sniffs a bit then picks it up. But will quickly and happily return with it once he picks it up. Sometimes he will chase a ball (is doing it more regularly now). We have also used the clicker method.

[4leggedvariety]

Well Pax,

No one is asking you to do what I do. You are right, you should not do anything you don't have any knowledge of or don't feel comfortable in doing. The post is to open your eyes to all sorts of different approaches. It does not mean it is the only workable method, though it is a very easy and reliable method for me & my dogs and at the end of learning, they all have very good attitudes & drive towards the retrieve.

Noticed that I have not described how it is done and I did say I do NOT teach other people to do what I do. Unless you have an open mind to digest all methods of training and use experience and understanding of the animal you are working with to evaluate what is suitable for you and your dog(s), you will never be a good trainer.

Broaden your horizon!!

[PAX]

Mine is broad, I don't want to hurt my dogs I know they would never hurt me, I return the favour.

[Tapferhund]

Check out my website Pax.........do any of my dogs look like they have been badly treated ?

The "forced" methods you have seen on DVDs are not the methods I or others do . I am not going to go thru the entire process here (now) as it is nearing 11.30 and some of us have to get up to go to work........but I will tell you the very first lesson . Now this is VERY VERY cruel , so don't be too upset will you

Have the collar and lead on the dog and have the dog sit next to you while you are sitting down. Wrap the lead around your leg so the dog can't walk off and you have control and a good tip is to sit the dog with it's back to a corner so he/she can't back away. Also have a bowl of food/rewards on a table near you.

Take the dumbell in your right hand and place your left hand over the dogs muzzle gently squeezing the sides of the dogs mouth .....at the same time saying 'fetch' placing the dumbell in the mouth for a split second.......then tell the dog to 'give' and reward immediately with food treats. Do this three or four times only and make a huge fuss over the dog.

nighty night !

[ness]

My thoughts are if its not a life threatening behavior and its something the dogs are suppose to enjoy why force them when they clearly are not. Obedience in a trial sense is suppose to be fun for both dog and handler if both parties are not enjoying it then why bother. No dog should need to be forced into doing anything especially for a trial ring.