Title Change: Non-dominant Newf!

[Lowchenlove]

Lilli beat me to it. When Tyke was a pup and started trying this behaviour on I would walk away from him or just completely ignore him by turning away. By dragging him to a different room etc etc he is getting attention albeit negative. Tyke very quickly learnt that mouthing = lack of attention and he soon settled down.

I am not a trainer so there may be a better way but this method works for me. Keep your "aura" very calm and controlled, you are the alpha after all. Good luck

[special_kali]

yeah we did this with my housemate's amstaff. when he jumps (which is all the freaking time) we just say NO real loud and turn away. he gets the message real quick. we just hope one day he'll LEARN the behaviour and not jump ever! i don't think there's a chance that'll ever happen though. lol. stupid dog...

[Stewie_the_Frenchie]

thanks guys, I've been trying and failing...I keep snapping and giving him attention. The other day he was having an "extinction burst" and doing crazy barking by getting up on the chair and barking at the back of my neck and I got through it. But then yesterday he was being horrid and I gave in and snapped at him, damn it, now I'm back to square one. I know all about negative attention is still attention, and now he is going to try even harder...but it's just so hard. I get so tired of it.

Oh well, another day...

[Nekhbet]

In my opinion, he does not consider himself higher in the pack order than me as I have done everything in my power using a hands off method to make sure of this.

He is generally a very well behaved dog

Hands off ... yeah not for big dogs who nip you and use their bulk to dominate you and your children. The word 'generally' doesnt cut it. A well behaved dog that understands its rank in the pack doesnt exhibit these behaviours, and especially for the length of time you talk about. I have 5 dogs at the moment, 3 of which I went through the 'tantrum' stages and not one of them dared try continuing any of the nusience behaviour past the first try.

action and consequence. What you are doing is not providing a clear cut yes or no. You are being inconsistant and obviously not at a high enough level.

If my dog got on the couch and woofed at me he would be out the door so fast he wouldnt know what happened. The dog shouldnt be on the furniture and he shouldnt be allowed to continue bouncing around till he 'gets it'. If he misbehaves, grab him by the collar, growl and I mean LOUDLY and put him out of the room. Keep him on a leash when he's in the house dont let him haev an opportunity to misbehave. Crate train him as well so he knows that there is a quiet time.

You're behaving like a puppy not a leader. Leaders dont jump up squealing, leaders dont let dogs keep annoying them and do nothing about it. 1 nip and it ends there.

I wouldnt even involve treats if he's nipping. He's being a right upstart and I wouldnt let him near the kids off leash at all until he learns. If he goes not nip or paw the kids I would correct him and lead him away from there - you dont play nice you dont play at all. Too big a dog to keep chipping away at his behaviour. You dont have to whack or hurt the dog just make the correction big enough to stop him in his tracks.

Edited December 1, 2007 by Nekhbet

[centitout]

bloodhound males can be quite dominant too as pups-i do not tolerate it at all!!!i start as pups by standing with them between my legs as they feed,if they growl etc they get removed to a time out room or out of the feeding yard.younger puppies if they mouth,nip etc i do the agh,agh noise in a growl,grab their muzzle shut and roll the top lip under a tooth and squeeze until they yelp.they have never done it again and i dont like doing it but they will grow to be big dogs and i am sorry,but we come before them and they will learn manners!i will also stomp towards them for fighting other pups ,etc and invade their personal space and MAKE them get out of my way while using the command move.i have seen some bad results with bloodhounds that have had a lot of reward based training and no correction,sometimes ignoring them does not work and they have to learn action=consequence.try the time out room-he has to be away from everyone i think for it to be effective-it worked with the chi that wouldnt let other dogs near us in the house.took 8 timeouts and fixed!!

[BJean]

newfnewf - my dogs I have now aren't newfs but I can tell you

that NEVER have I known a 'hands off' method to work with a dominant giant size dog.

If you are not naturally asertive, a hands of method can land you in more trouble.

Okay one of my boys Brasco, is 7 months old and weighs about 50kg - if I only used hands off with a determined, stubborn dog I'd have a nipping playing pup also.

See they know their own strength - they feel that when they run into you and your body shifts its weight, gives a little etc.

Ever seen a male pup run up to an adult dog and bark and jump on it?

No they approach with their head bowed, curve their topline and often submissively urinate.

That's because if your male pup did that to an adult newf or anatolian etc

quite simply he would cop it.

The adult dog would take such an approach, as an act of disrespect or challenge and would put the upstart immediately in its place - pups are subservient to adults no ifs or buts.

If you want your pup to do something he doesn't want to do (like get in the car or out from undernesth the table) what does your pup do?

UPDATE: we tried setting up a circumstance last night where we were sitting down (this is usually when he comes up, puts his feet up on the couch/chair and lords it over me). When he did this, I lept up and made a loud high pitched noise

and stood with my back to him, arms crossed. He thought this was a game . . .

newfnewf a high pitched sound is the wrong noise to make as it will excite your pup and encourgae him to play! ;)

Nekhbet is spot on

Edited December 1, 2007 by lilli

[Stewie_the_Frenchie]

nekhbet, how harsh do I need to be with him?...the amount of times I have grabbed him by the back of the neck and growled LOUDLY at him, I've lost count. I have tried smacking him, he thinks it's a game...I don't want to start beating him. He isn't allowed on the furniture, this has been the rule from the start. I am well aware of the size he is to become, this is why I am seeking help. When kids are around he is on a lead. Just how do I get the message across without damaging him or our relationship? A lot I hear on this forum and in other literature is hands off, hands off - and if you hit your puppy you damage your relationship with him. I don't want him to be afraid of me, but I also want him to respect and have faith in my leadership. It's all such conflicting and in turn confusing information. Do you know what I mean? I always hear that it's not good for the dog to know that the pain is coming from you. They associate the pain with you. Argh! It's so frustrating.

You're absolutely right, generally well behaved IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

Lilli, I hear what you are saying, but you guys are being a little cryptic...so I'm supposed to hit him when he does this? How hard? With what? Where on his body? My hand has stung after the few times I've smacked him (on the rump) and he hasn't flinched! I've held him on the ground and growled at him...nothing. I'd just like to know where the line is. But then, where is the line for him! I get it, I do, I just need a little guidance. You're 100% right about the high pitched squeal, he backs away but then comes at me for a game.

Thank you, and centitout for your replies. I would greatly appreciate a little more guidance as I am new to this, but I'm not a lightweight, I just need to know exactly how to go about it.

I appreciate your time to reply, if I have been curt I do not mean to...it was not a good weekend with him (I seem to remember it ending in yelling!).

Edited December 3, 2007 by newnewf

[Cosmolo]

I'm sure lilli and nekbet will respond but if i physically correct, it is not with a smack but usually with scruff and or collar- the sensitivity of the dog determines how firmly you need to do it- an effective correction should stop the behaviour immediately and all dogs have different levels of sensitivity so i doubt anyone will be able to tell you exactly how hard/ how firmly you need to correct your dog. Timing is important too- if your timing is late, the level of correction will need to be higher to be effective.

Yes, alot of peole talk about hands off and while it may work for some dogs, it doesn't for many. Physical corrections are not IMO bond diminishing if the dog knows what it was for, and how to avoid the correction to get the reward. If you give lots of low level corrections though, you will load the dog and increase the intensity of the behaviour so an effective correction is essential.

[Stewie_the_Frenchie]

thanks cosmolo, it all gets a bit confusing. I did a lot of reading about Newfoundlands before I got him (naturally), and a lot was written about how sensitive they are - so that's why I was gentle to start with. For some strange reason, I don't think I have a sensitive one!

Your advice and opinion makes sense to me, thank you.

Edited December 3, 2007 by newnewf

[Cosmolo]

Often dogs wll start as being quite sensitive but we desensitise them inadvertently through giving low level corrections without even realising. The best correction is one the dog does not expect and often people will misinterpret a vocalisation (squeal) that comes after a correction as pain when in fact it is surprise and will often re-sensitise the dog.

You have to balance corrections with high level rewards for good behaviour. Let the dog have a tantrum when you give a correction but you MUST follow through and win. Once you have corrected set up the same or similar situation again for two reasons- first is to see if your correction was effective and the second is to provide the opportunity for reward. Don't wait for bad behaviour to happen, recognise when it occurs and think of ways you can set up the situation when you have the time an inclination to do so.

I would of course suggest consulting with a trainer but i am pretty sure you're in a remote area? Am i getting confused or are you coming to Melbourne in a few weeks? It might be a good idea to even just have one session with someone who can not just explain but demonstrate these things for you- alot is lots in the written word.

[Stewie_the_Frenchie]

You read my mind - yes, I am coming to Melbourne next wednesday night for two weeks. I was thinking of seeing a professional with him, but wasn't sure if I should as he isn't in his normal environment. I bet he wouldn't do it during this session, that would be just my luck at the moment! Are private sessions something that is possible?

Actually, you know what, I've just looked at your signature

I'm very interested to book in with you if you've got the sessions available...should I PM you? Or email?

[Cosmolo]

Even if the behaviour isn't prevelant due to the change in environment, there are still lots of things that could be set up, explained and demonstrated. Probably best to email me- i do read pm's but then i tend to forget about them!

[Stewie_the_Frenchie]

will do, thanks cosmolo

[Stewie_the_Frenchie]

Ugh.

Ok after much talk with the OH and thought, we have decided to go ahead with a more stern course of action.

Turtle nipped at the back of my leg tonight and I swung around and bopped him on the nose (I'm using the word "bopped" for the more sensitive of us out there - for those of you who realise my circumstance and know the level of consequence I need to take it to; he would have felt it.). He then barked at me (defiance, no?), so I bopped him again and outside he went (I feel like if I had let it go and ignored the bark, he would have won...was that right?). He was quite compliant when he came back in. But then when I sat down on the couch (about 20 min later) to read a book, he came around in front of me, sat down, and started that really annoying barking. So I stood up and put myself in time out. OH said he hung around the door and then went to see what he (OH) was up to.

I felt horrid after doing it, I know it's not supposed to feel good. By the way, we are going to book into a trainer who deals with behaviour issues when we get to Melbourne in a week. It's time for action.

I will keep you guys updated, hopefully there will be no more nipping - fingers crossed for me. I'm not entirely confident though.

[Stewie_the_Frenchie]

Ok, I have just been PMed some good advice and am throwing it all out the window until I see a professional dog trainer next week.

I don't want it to get out of control and cross a line I shouldn't be crossing.

Sorry for this being such an irratic post...it's just been rediculous! I am now accepting the fact that, yes, I am new to this and I really need some help with it (it's just so hard when you're remote, you kind of have to rely on advice w/o physically taking the dog to see someone - just not possible out here).

I understand that I may have to up the consequence, but I'm not going to go any further until it is confirmed by and in an environment with experienced advice and observation. Thank you so much to everyone who has helped me out here...allof your advice has been greatly appreciated and considered. I just feel I need some help from a professional who can see Turtle and his behaviour, as I DO NOT want to cross any lines.

Ok, thanks again guys for the help. Even though I now feel like the crazy woman everyone tries to avoid, I'm not, I'm just an inexperienced new dog owner who is going a little stir crazy in a remote community in hot weather!

I'm very glad to be coming home to civilisation and working towards improving my dog's behaviour.

EDIT: I will leave the prior post up, even though I feel bad about it, hopefully if anyone is in the same position in the future and reads this thread, they can benefit from the unfolding events

Edited December 3, 2007 by newnewf

[BelgianPup]

I have read your thread with interest. (I will be getting a puppy for xmas so am reading up on all things puppy) Please let us know how it all goes with the trainer.

[Eileen]

Good luck with everything Newfnewf

[Stewie_the_Frenchie]

will do belgianpup!

thanks eileen, appreciate it!

[Bubitty]

Goodluck Newnewf.

Despite everything you have told us I think you are a fantastic owner for admitting that you need help and accepting it!

Many hugs to you and Turtle! I am a keen follower of this thread and will be cheering you on from afar!!!!!!

[chloebear]

Please let us know how things go, once you have seen a behavourist. I must admit a behavourist can be amazing when you are having problems with your puppy. I sort help over Holly and the change has been great. She was desexed last week, so I felt sorry for her and went a little soft for a week and yes she has taken advantage, so we are back to our stricter training inline with the behavourist advice. Hope t

Edited December 3, 2007 by chloebear