Title Change: Non-dominant Newf!

[Stewie_the_Frenchie]

Hi there guys,

In the last couple of weeks, my near 6 month Newfie has started a really bad habit. He is snapping and nipping in an unpredictable manner. He is currently growing his adult teeth, but I thought he would resort to mouthing rather than snapping. He has no reason to do this, we do not treat him badly. When he does it, we grab his snout and shut it while growling at him. This used to work when he was going through mouthing as a pup, but it's not working now. If anything, it makes him snap more - as soon as we let go (we are not doing it hard, just firmly letting him know that we are leader and we don't like it).

Is anyone else experiencing this sort of behaviour? I am quite baffled as to what to do. We are heading home to VIC/TAS for xmas/new year in a couple of weeks and I really don't want his first meeting with family to be an unpleasant one.

(I feel I should note, I don't think it's actual biting - when he does make contact, it's not hard).

I really want to nip this one in the butt(!). It's quite an unsavoury trait.

Edited February 29, 2008 by newnewf

[Boxerheart]

Consider it a bite! It is dominance behaviour, he is either testing you or already of the opinion that he is your pack leader and that means he will no allow your touch unless he wishes it.

Have you been to puppy school and learned about pack hierachy? Has he been socialised? Do you feed him when he demands and not make him work for it (even a simple sit and wait?) Have you ever put him in submission?

If you are letting him on furniture and your bed, feeding him without making him earn it, letting him barge past you, stepping over or going around him when he is blocking your way these are just SOME of the things that have told him you are deferring to him in his leadership role.

He is a big dog. Get thee to a trainer now is my advice...quickly.

Note..due to lack of info I have had to assume the worst case senario. More info is probably required to know your Training knowledge. Cheers.

[Stewie_the_Frenchie]

ok boxerheart, i appreciate the initial feedback... so here is the additional info you are asking for.

I have trained him since the second he came into the house, he has to work to even go through a doorway (sit/stay) - he sits for his food, he lies down for any treat, he has to sit even for a pat! We eat before he does, and he doesn't get his food (approach it) before I give him the signal. I have read up on a method that states this will ensure the dog is aware of its place in the pack. He gets pats and attention when I say, and is ignored if he approaches me for attention without working for it first. He knows who is boss, as I have made sure of this. On more than one occassion I have put him on his back and held him there (gently) until he submits.

I know he is testing me, as I have said in other posts, he is going through adolescence and I am aware of this stage and am doing the appropriate things (upped the training/awareness of pack order) to address it. In my opinion, he does not consider himself higher in the pack order than me as I have done everything in my power using a hands off method to make sure of this.

He is generally a very well behaved dog...he is obedient and kind (of the breed's general nature). I realise the size he is going to become, which is why I have invested much time and energy into research and implementation of a training regime.

I hope this helps boxerheart and anyone else who was after a little more info!

Thank you for taking the time to enquire further. :wink:

Edit: we live in the remote Kimberley, so there is no option of puppy/obedience school. However, I am taking the necessary steps in order to make sure he is socialised with both people and other dogs.

Edited November 26, 2007 by newnewf

[Stewie_the_Frenchie]

must remember to give more info next time!! It can be hard to remember when you're wrapped up in your own little world!

[Boxerheart]

Sounds like you know what you are doing....

Arrrgh, I feel for you as you keep at it!

The only other thing I can think of is a time out room. Banishment for a set time each time he tries it on. I have heard this works..but have not tried it. In theory..it would be the ultimate way for the pack to ignore him, thus asserting dominance.

Or

Crate train, as it is the lowest member of the pack who usually guards the den..which would then become his crate not your whole house.. And following this thought through, it would then be special to be with you in the house.

Good luck!

[sas]

Some dogs think grabbing and rough handling is play so it can be frustrating.

Time outs and water pistols can work.

Sometimes you have to step up the punishment if you have one of those dogs who thinks punishment is a game.

They can also be testing their boundaries, it's about the age where they really start testing. We had a horrible time with Dante, thankfully the biting has now stopped after a lot of hard work.

Edited November 26, 2007 by sas

[Stewie_the_Frenchie]

Sounds like you know what you are doing....

Arrrgh, I feel for you as you keep at it!

The only other thing I can think of is a time out room. Banishment for a set time each time he tries it on. I have heard this works..but have not tried it. In theory..it would be the ultimate way for the pack to ignore him, thus asserting dominance.

Or

Crate train, as it is the lowest member of the pack who usually guards the den..which would then become his crate not your whole house.. And following this thought through, it would then be special to be with you in the house.

Good luck!

hmmm, that's something I didn't even realise with the crate training. That's an interesting one, I think I'll try that one out. We used to put him in time out when he mouthed, but his time out room also used to be his toilet and now he is finally toileting outside, we don't want him to revert back. But I guess if he's only in there a few minutes...thanks boxerheart, that's some really valuable info!

[Stewie_the_Frenchie]

Some dogs think grabbing and rough handling is play so it can be frustrating.

Time outs and water pistols can work.

Sometimes you have to step up the punishment if you have one of those dogs who thinks punishment is a game.

They can also be testing their boundaries, it's about the age where they really start testing. We had a horrible time with Dante, thankfully the biting has now stopped after a lot of hard work.

Thanks sas. He is definitely testing the boundaries! Also, he thinks that punishment is a bit of a game sometimes too. When you say "up the punishment", can you give me an example? I'm glad to hear that your hard work paid off though, it gives me hope. Just yesterday and this morning, I was really strict with him and that seemed to work a bit, I think for those few moments he realised he wasn't top dog. It was a bit distressing to not be able to pat him and tell him it's alright when he looked at me with those puppy eyes! But I have to stay focused as I certainly do not want a pushy, dominant, 70kg dog!

What did you do with Dante?

EDIT: Leila and Dante are so georgous by the way, whenever you post I always admire the way that Leila holds herself...quite stoic!

Edited November 26, 2007 by newnewf

[peibe]

Something that I find works aswell in pressing thier tongue hard when they put your hand in their mouths, they let go fast

[Rhi*Jak*Ed]

Jak's the same..... It drives me nuts. She has to earn everything too but still gives me a nip at the heel when she wants to play etc.

I picked her up last night from the breeder's after having been away for a week and she was snapping at me like crazy. So I put her in the crate in the back of the car and had a go at saying g'day once we were home and she was a little more settled.

I put her in time out now because I can't keep tolerating it. She's a squirmy little jack russell so trying to grab hold of her at times is quite the challenge in itself, but I find that a time out calms her down (even if it's only marginal).

All the best with it, and I feel for you, it can be quite frustrating.

Rhi & Jak

[Stewie_the_Frenchie]

Jak's the same..... It drives me nuts. She has to earn everything too but still gives me a nip at the heel when she wants to play etc.

I picked her up last night from the breeder's after having been away for a week and she was snapping at me like crazy. So I put her in the crate in the back of the car and had a go at saying g'day once we were home and she was a little more settled.

I put her in time out now because I can't keep tolerating it. She's a squirmy little jack russell so trying to grab hold of her at times is quite the challenge in itself, but I find that a time out calms her down (even if it's only marginal).

All the best with it, and I feel for you, it can be quite frustrating.

Rhi & Jak

Thanks Rhi, I think I will go back to time out and see if that works. It is frustrating - you have a squirmy one, and I have a 35kg one that chucks a hissy fit on his back and I have to drag him into his room...oh man, it's sweaty work! I can imagine Jak would be tricky to catch, at least Turtle is slow!

[peibe]

Sorry I should not laugh but I have a mental picture of a 35kg Newfy chucking a hissy fit while little you drags him to his room

LOL

[Stewie_the_Frenchie]

Sorry I should not laugh but I have a mental picture of a 35kg Newfy chucking a hissy fit while little you drags him to his room

LOL

Yes, the OH loves it too :D

[Stewie_the_Frenchie]

AAAARRRGGGGGHHHHH!!!!

UPDATE: Some of OH's kinder students came over yesterday to play with Turtle and we thought this would be a good socialisation opp. He was good with them once he calmed down but then he started nipping at them. We gave them treats and told them to give it to them when he was calm. One of the boys even did a little training with him, but he still nipped at his shirt after. What do we do...we've tried saying Ah! short and sharp and he stops, but then does it again soon after.

We're trying so hard to get him to be good...we've also been watching "it's me or the dog", she has good tips in that. We might try a more harsh sound aversion. I don't know, any suggestions?

[chloebear]

Sorry I know I am off topic, but what is a Newfy - I thought my girl was big 17kg 6 month puppy but your puppy sounds hugh.

[Stewie_the_Frenchie]

that's ok chloebear...a newfie is a Newfoundland - or in other words, a massive bear of a dog :wink:

Google it and look at some pics to satisfy curiosity...they're georgous looking creatures

He will get to about 65-70kg, going off others. And I think about 70cm in height.

BIG but gentle

[chloebear]

Thanks, must admit I love the picture of him with you. Hard to beleive our puppies are the same age.

[Stewie_the_Frenchie]

haha! I know, my old flatmate used to have a couple of pugs, and the only other dogs I've owned are a papillion and a border collie kelpie x. Turtle is definitely a new thing...I'm enjoying it, but I have to force myself to remember he is still only a young pup, it's hard when he's the size of a lab!

[BJean]

Hi there guys,

In the last couple of weeks, my near 6 month Newfie has started a really bad habit. He is snapping and nipping in an unpredictable manner. He is currently growing his adult teeth, but I thought he would resort to mouthing rather than snapping. He has no reason to do this, we do not treat him badly. When he does it, we grab his snout and shut it while growling at him. This used to work when he was going through mouthing as a pup, but it's not working now. If anything, it makes him snap more - as soon as we let go (we are not doing it hard, just firmly letting him know that we are leader and we don't like it).

Is anyone else experiencing this sort of behaviour? I am quite baffled as to what to do. We are heading home to VIC/TAS for xmas/new year in a couple of weeks and I really don't want his first meeting with family to be an unpleasant one.

(I feel I should note, I don't think it's actual biting - when he does make contact, it's not hard).

I really want to nip this one in the butt(!). It's quite an unsavoury trait.

newfnewf it sounds as if you have a bolshy newf

Aeons ago we were owned by a bolshy male newf -

yes they can be gentle giants

but a male newf full of himself can be quite a determined handful - and this 'naughty' nipping (or mozzie bites as we used to call them) is really the actions of a cheeky pup pushing his boundaries.

If your pup was to jump up on and play-nip a more dominant dog, he would be met with a sharp reprimand and would not do it again. Your pup throws his weight around and dictates play because he can - he reads like a confident youngster who is not convinced that his future place in the hierachy isn't head of the house.

If he is prone to becoming more animated when reprimanded - try ignoring the mouthing/jumping behaviour and then make a fuss of him when he eventually sits or stands calmly. Playing up when reprimanded can be a way for the pup to distract your lesson; thereby successfully avoiding doing what you want him to do.

Edited November 29, 2007 by lilli

[Stewie_the_Frenchie]

Excellent, thank you lilli, it's great to have feedback from the same breed owner...oh man, not bolshy!

Yes, we suspected we had a dominant one (the breeder used the term "naughty", we took that to mean cute and cheeky ) - even the vet could see it first visit when he was 9 weeks old!

Will he turn into a gentle giant with the right guidance? That is why I chose the breed!

UPDATE: we tried setting up a circumstance last night where we were sitting down (this is usually when he comes up, puts his feet up on the couch/chair and lords it over me). When he did this, I lept up and made a loud high pitched noise and stood with my back to him, arms crossed. He thought this was a game and every time I moved to put my back to him, he would play with my legs - that's what he's interested in. SO, I decided to face a wall, that way he couldn't come around the front of me, so I didn't have to turn around, which in turn would have instigated a game in his eyes. I had OH watching quietly, and when Turtle moved away calmly I praised BIG TIME. After about 30 min (roughly, maybe less) of doing this, he started to get the idea and I could see the cogs turning. I think it will take a few more sessions, but there was definitely improvement.

Gee, it's true when people say that different methods work for different dogs...it's taken us just over 3 months to find something that works for him and us. Hopefully it will continue.

Edited November 29, 2007 by newnewf