Need Some Advice For A Friend

[cazzaritch]

A friend of mine has two pug x cavaliers, 1 male 1 female.

Yesterday we were talking about house training issues as Andy, one of my labs, did a huge pee on the floor overnight. Our fault, we didnt make sure that he did his business outside before we put him to bed.

Anyway, my friend mentioned that his female puppy peed on the floor right in front of him that morning. He then rubbed her nose in it. I was horrified and my face obviously showed it and he asked me what was wrong.

I told him that it's very damaging to the dog to do that. Now here is where I need the help... He asked me why and to be honest, I didn't know the correct answer and babbled something about pee having toxins and dogs noses are very sensitive.

Please can some one give me the correct answer so that I can pass the information on and help to prevent this happening again to the poor little girl.

Even though I don't fully know why it's wrong, I do know it's wrong and would NEVER do this to a dog myself.

Thanks

Cazza

[Ellis]

Why is it wrong? Do onto others as you would have them do onto you.

I am sure there is a real reason like the dog doesn't understand what is happening & why but personally I just think it is mean.

[cazzaritch]

Why is it wrong? Do onto others as you would have them do onto you.

I am sure there is a real reason like the dog doesn't understand what is happening & why but personally I just think it is mean.

I totally agree with you, it is mean. Maybe I should go down the do unto others route, but I would also like to give him facts rather than my feelings/opinions (mainly because I ger a bit over-emotional about these things and tend to rant).

[Rysup]

I don't know that its "wrong" per say, but it wont have the desired effect. It wont teach the puppy not to pee inside, it will just teach her to not pee in front of your friend!

[ruski77]

There are a number of reasons why you shouldn't rub your dogs nose in their "business"..

Firstly, if some time has passed after the accident (I'm talking over 5 minutes), the dog has no way to of associating your displeasure with their previous accident. This will create fear and mistrust in your dog (towards you) who will likely in the future go off an do his business in private somewhere away from you i.e. in another room of the house!

Secondly, I agree it is cruel... If a dog has an accident in the house it is the owners fault not the dog... he is just doing what comes naturally... If anyone should be rubbing their nose in it, it should be the owner for lack of attention!!

Anyway that is my 2 cents worth... some other people with more experience might be able to give you some more reasons.

[Erny]

Rubbing a dog's nose "in it" bears NO correllation by the dog to what it just did. It is a form of punishment that is foreign to it and makes no pairing with that to the fact that it urinated. It is not only bond diminishing but also has a history of leading to aggression later on in life. Some otherwise unexplained aggressive (to the owner/humans) behaviour can be traced back to inappropriate punishment for house-soiling.

Your friend should instead be asking "WHY?" Why did his dog urinate right in front of him? Could be a heirarchy issue. Could be that he hadn't let his dog out in time for a toilet. Could be house-training is incomplete. Could be through fear. Could be through inconsistent training. Could be through illness (eg. bladder infection).

Either way, your friend should be asking himself what it is that HE hasn't done or perhaps has done incorrectly. He should then berate himself and go about doing what he needs to do to APPROPRIATELY fix the problem he could well have had a hand in creating himself.

Edited November 13, 2007 by Erny

[cavNrott]

I'm afraid I'm not as polite as those who have already replied. This is a puppy and the owner neglected to watch his pup. He should rub his own nose in the mess and let that be a lesson to him to take his puppy outside more often and watch for the signs that pup needs to toilet.

Puppies have no more control over their bladders than baby humans. Would he rub a baby's nose in it's soiled nappy?

We owe it to our dogs to be fair to them. The treatment he dished out to this puppy was cruel and unfair. He shouldn't be at all surprised if the puppy is now fearful of him and in future might eliminate in places where the owner is unlikely to find it such as behind drapes, behind furniture etc., There is no place for cruelty to puppies in house training, it will set the pup back further and that will be the owners fault entirely.

[chloebear]

I beleive that rubbing a dogs nose in their urine only releives the frustration of the owner and does nothing for the behaviour of the dog.

[Paganman]

Aw thats shocking, poor puppy how cruel. All thatll happen is the pup will be scared of him.

[krash01]

I have a pug x myself and never rubbed his nose in it when he was a pup. I wasnt really sure about the health issues of doing it, but i just know that if Ben were a human child i wouldn't do that! It's just wrong!

He's 11 months old now and has been toilet trained since about 4-5 months old. We found that taking him to where he's supposed to go toilet as often as we could and every time he had an accident, got him trained really quickly!!

[Griffo]

Rubbing a dog's nose "in it" bears NO correllation by the dog to what it just did. It is a form of punishment that is foreign to it and makes no pairing with that to the fact that it urinated. It is not only bond diminishing but also has a history of leading to aggression later on in life. Some otherwise unexplained aggressive (to the owner/humans) behaviour can be traced back to inappropriate punishment for house-soiling.

Your friend should instead be asking "WHY?" Why did his dog urinate right in front of him? Could be a heirarchy issue. Could be that he hadn't let his dog out in time for a toilet. Could be house-training is incomplete. Could be through fear. Could be through inconsistent training. Could be through illness (eg. bladder infection).

Either way, your friend should be asking himself what it is that HE hasn't done or perhaps has done incorrectly. He should then berate himself and go about doing what he needs to do to APPROPRIATELY fix the problem he could well have had a hand in creating himself.

what erny said!!

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

Oh for God's sake, people are such morons - this is just a cruel act that means absolutely ZERO to a puppy and will cause it to be fearful in the future.

Please print out the following information and give it to your friend. I sincerely hope that he will be prepared to put a little effort in.

Did he arrive from the womb toilet trained? No. Did his mother train him by rubbing his nose in it? I hope not. Well don't do it to dogs either.

HOUSETRAINING TIPS

Ok - first thing to do is decide on the command (I call it “do wees”) you will repeat over and over. You have to really focus on the dog for about 2-3 days to be successful. You have a pocketful of special treats on hand all the time for the first 2-3 days.

Walk the dog several times a day and every time the dog wees, you get very excited and keep saying “Good boy/girl, do wees, do wees” – give the dog treats every time.

First thing in the morning, last thing at night and every time you see the dog eat or drink (both precursors to weeing) whisk the dog into the garden and repeat the command “do wees”. Get very excited and present treats every time dog goes.

The dog’s aim in life is to please you. If the dog should have an accident inside the house – say NOTHING at all. The dog soon gets the idea that when he/she goes outside you are really, really pleased and he/she gets rewarded.

NB: Please note that the smell of urine must be properly removed for any housetraining to be successful. There are products on the market such as “Urine Off” but they are very expensive. A mix of white vinegar and water is a much cheaper alternative and should work for tiles and other surfaces although you should always take care with wood etc. For carpet/rugs, I use either a mixture of Napisan/water or bicarb of soda and water. I completely soak the stain using a dab on technique with a cloth. When it is very wet, I use an old towel to soak up the excess moisture. Again, be careful on any expensive carpet/rug, I have never had any problems but I cannot guarantee any method here.

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

And the best thing to have is a doggie door so that they can go when they need to, particularly when they are either young or old.

[pebbles]

OK I know it's not the done thing and I've never rubbed a pups nose in 'it' always watched and trained, easier than cleaning up any mess. Being an 'oldie' I remember as a kid who wasn't allowed to have a pup going to any friend's homes (where there was a pup to play with rather than the friend, lol) and the normal thing was 'rub the nose in it' and put the dog outside. I don't recall any dog having temperament issues, being frightened, getting aggressive then or later, just always being friendly playful kids pets and not weeing inside!

I'm not saying the training methods now aren't better but maybe, just maybe, some of the oldtime strategies worked as well not just with the house training but overall. Way back then a dog was a dog usually and unacceptable behaviour wasn't mucked around with. I grew up in a fairly heavily dog populated area (all the kids had a dog or two) and dog bites (to human) and dog fights were very rare and most of the dogs were playing together with their kids in the street.

Any other 'mature' DOLers remember those days?

[Flaves]

I am only 30 Pebbles and i remember that was what was done.

My parents did that to all our dogs then put them outside.

I don;t do it, but it did use tio be the norm

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

Yes but in the old days, we didn't have all the information available to us now, the dog trainers that come to your home, the internet.

I don't feel there's any excuse for the old barbaric ways to still be applied - we have to evolve sometime don't we?

[pebbles]

Sometimes I think there's tooooooo much information and toooooooo many books written (often by those who know the theory but haven't the practice having read books written by those who know etc....) maybe some basic instincts could be handy at times! I'm not advocating 'barbaric practices' just the return to some common sense in the rearing of kids and animals!

Ok so I'm an old fuddy duddy - you can tell me to go bag my head now

[cazzaritch]

Thanks for all of your advice guys, I will have a chat with him about it - hopefully calmly - letting him know that what he did is just pointless and wont help in the toilet training at all.

I also think I will dig a little deeper on his house training methods. I know they live in an apartment and I have no idea how they are managing with the house training while at work etc.

I have to tread gently with this guy as I have already been a little lot over heated when I discovered they bought the pups from a pet store, I don't always take a breath before I go off on one. As far as I can tell, apart from the house training issues, the dogs are really really well cared for.

This time I plan to try to educate and help and think about my message.

I will also mention the urine stop and the home made remedy, thanks dogmad for the recipe and for the house traning tips.

[montall]

Sometimes I think there's tooooooo much information and toooooooo many books written (often by those who know the theory but haven't the practice having read books written by those who know etc....) maybe some basic instincts could be handy at times! I'm not advocating 'barbaric practices' just the return to some common sense in the rearing of kids and animals!

Ok so I'm an old fuddy duddy - you can tell me to go bag my head now

Hell yes pebbles, couldn't agree more with your first statement. Definitely toooo much information and toooo many books etc. etc.

And I do remember those days when life seemed a lot simpler. I often wonder what will be considered normal practice in the future. Today's certainties have a way of becoming tomorrow's old fashioned out of date practices. Mind you having said that, I would never rub my dog's noses in 'it'. They would probably just wipe it all over me. And in the end I would be the one having to clean it off them. :rolleyes:

So I guess we will have to go and bag our heads together because I'm an old fuddy duddy too. Couldn't you tell.

[cavNrott]

Sometimes I think there's tooooooo much information and toooooooo many books written (often by those who know the theory but haven't the practice having read books written by those who know etc....) maybe some basic instincts could be handy at times! I'm not advocating 'barbaric practices' just the return to some common sense in the rearing of kids and animals!

Ok so I'm an old fuddy duddy - you can tell me to go bag my head now

I don't think it's the information available I think it's because dogs aren't able to live the way they used to. Neither can we. We used to trust our neighbours and our dogs. Things changed, firstly with people and then with dogs.

I'm afraid common sense has left us for good. We have all lost our basic freedoms. Kids and dogs used to be great and got along well together. Now they are all feral and it's our fault. Actually I think our dogs are better behaved than our kids though. At least most of us train our dogs without them screeching about their rights. Not so with many of the kids.

The books and training are a good thing. We are treating our dogs better and training them but everyone now seems to think that anything they don't like should be reported and as a result there are too many laws. People are always yelling about something else that should be banned.

I SAY BAN THE PRACTISE OF RUBBING DOGS NOSES IN THEIR ACCIDENTS. We never did that even back in my grandmothers day though. I don't know how she house trained her dogs but they all sat around the fire of an evening, they slept in the house but I don't recall any peeing accidents.