I Need Advice

[Perry's Mum]

I really need advice - I think my dog has the shits with me but I don't know what I have done. Perry is a 4 1/2 years old dexed female Koolie and is an only dog and an inside dog. She is healthy and there does not appear to be anything physically wrong with her. She has two great passions in her life - sheep dog school and playing with the ball. We go to sheepdog school as often as we can and she loves it. We play with the ball on a daily basis either in the garden or at the dog club. In the last few weeks she has been reluctant to play ball in the garden - she stands with it in her mouth and barks at me or deliberately moves it out of my reach. When we go to the dog club she is perfectly happy. It may be as simple as her wanting to go to the dog club more often and our visits have been a bit few and far between recently because of work, weather and other things happening at the dog club. Inside the house she always used to be close enough to keep an eye on me but right at the moment she is down the other end of the house hiding under the table with her backside towards me. I am not allowed many pats or cuddles and she won't take treats from me although she will happily eat them if I leave them in her bowl. There are only the two of us here and she is making even more of a fuss over visitors than she used to.

All suggestions gratefully received - I could not cope with a moody partner and I don't want to have to live with a moody dog.

[Erny]

First - remove the notion that your dog has cracked it with you. That's a "human notion" (anthropomorphism) not a dog one. Dogs are inclined to live for the moment. Not sulk about not having gone or done things as often as they might like you to.

Second - look deeper into what could be causing the problem. For most of this, I need you to do this 'exploration', as I don't know your dog nor her relationship with you.

But for starters, and merely as an example of a couple of possibilities :-

1. Could it be that your dog isn't feeling as well as she might? Eg. Sore mouth/teeth? Or something else?
   
2. Could there be a heirarchy challenge occuring? Eg. HER ball .... not your ball?
   

I'm not suggesting it IS either of the above (although it could be). It could be something else. But you need to look more closely to source out the reason for the behaviour. Rest assured, though, that it would not be because she has cracked the sads with you.

Edited November 11, 2007 by Erny

[Perry's Mum]

I don't think there is anything physically wrong with her because she is happy enough to play at the dog club and it is not that long since she had her annual check up.

The ball is her ball not mine - I own the dog club ball she owns the garden ball - I have wondered whether she is challenging to be the leader and if her behaviour was consistent I would interpret it that way but she seems to pick and choose her time and it is only in the garden that she seems to want to bark at me. Before this she was very happy if I went to the garden with her and threw the ball for her and she would come back and put it on the chair next to me. Now she puts it on the chair and if I make a move for it she snatches it first and puts it on the ground out of my reach or holds it in her mouth and barks.

[Erny]

Before this she was very happy if I went to the garden with her and threw the ball for her and she would come back and put it on the chair next to me. Now she puts it on the chair and if I make a move for it she snatches it first and puts it on the ground out of my reach or holds it in her mouth and barks.

I would suggest she may be trying to instigate a game of "keep off chasey" with you. But I also have an inkling (and that's all it can be with the scant info available) that she may see her heirarchy status as higher than yours. You should 'own' EVERYTHING ..... but let her play with things if you want to. ;)

Edited November 11, 2007 by Erny

[Sarah L]

I really need advice - I think my dog has the shits with me but I don't know what I have done. Perry is a 4 1/2 years old dexed female Koolie and is an only dog and an inside dog. She is healthy and there does not appear to be anything physically wrong with her. She has two great passions in her life - sheep dog school and playing with the ball. We go to sheepdog school as often as we can and she loves it. We play with the ball on a daily basis either in the garden or at the dog club. In the last few weeks she has been reluctant to play ball in the garden - she stands with it in her mouth and barks at me or deliberately moves it out of my reach. When we go to the dog club she is perfectly happy. It may be as simple as her wanting to go to the dog club more often and our visits have been a bit few and far between recently because of work, weather and other things happening at the dog club. Inside the house she always used to be close enough to keep an eye on me but right at the moment she is down the other end of the house hiding under the table with her backside towards me. I am not allowed many pats or cuddles and she won't take treats from me although she will happily eat them if I leave them in her bowl. There are only the two of us here and she is making even more of a fuss over visitors than she used to.

All suggestions gratefully received - I could not cope with a moody partner and I don't want to have to live with a moody dog.

Perry's Mum can I ask if you have recently severely scolded or smacked your dog. Did something happen at sheep dog school did she get rammed against the fence or anything like that. I have bolded some of what you have said because it makes me think there is some sort of trust issue going on from your dog to you. I may be wrong but it was my first thought. Try and think if anything at all would have caused a breakdown in trust between you recently.

[Perry's Mum]

If she is starting to see her status as higher than mine, what would be an effective way to get back on top again? If she wants to play keep off chasey, how do I find out the rules and work out whether I am fit enough to play?

No Perry has not been scolded and certainly not smacked. She works well at sheepdog school and has not had any problems with the sheep except for getting a bit frustrated with some when we worked in a bigger paddock than she is used to. She gets lots of praise for her sheep work because she came from a working background where she was abused and about to be shot.

I really want us to get past this because I may have to go into hospital for a couple of weeks and we have never been parted that long. I will try and get someone to move in to look after her at home but if that is not possible I may need to send her on holiday to some friends with a sheep property.

[Erny]

If she is starting to see her status as higher than mine, what would be an effective way to get back on top again?

I can only (safely) give a small amount of advice in the absence of knowing your dog and yourself. And due to this absence of 'knowing', heirarchy status issue is at best only a guess. I'm sure there is heaps of information in the archives here, and there's certainly lots of books to read that might help you. "The Other End of the Leash" by Patricia McConnell is one that I can think of, first up.

However, things you can apply/do (if you aren't already) :

NILIF program (Nothing In Life Is Free). In otherwords, your dog must do something for YOU first - before you do something (including, for example, a simple 'pat') for your dog.

You could go through the "not on bed/couches"; "not in your space"; "you go through doorways/gateways first" etc. etc. As far as how much of what you need to do depends much on what you already do or don't do.

If she wants to play keep off chasey, how do I find out the rules and work out whether I am fit enough to play?

All you need to remember is "Everything On Your Terms". So YOU be the one who starts play and choses with which toy/item and decides when play will finish. If she ends up wanting to play "keep off chasey" and won't allow you the ball (valuable resource) simply walk off .... go inside. And always work to finish the game before she really wants it to end. You can always come back out again a bit later for another bout ..... but finish while she still wants more.

That's one way of doing it. A 'twist' to that method is having two balls (of the same type, if she's fussy that way). Throw one. She gets it but won't bring/give it back. For the intial stages of this "lesson/game" let her see you have a second ball but you don't throw that one until she drops (or brings back - your choice) and ignores the first ball. When she does, throw the 2nd ball, pick up the first ball. If she's not interested in ball #2 and doesn't relinquish/deliver ball #1, stop the game, as per above.

Edited November 11, 2007 by Erny

[Perry's Mum]

She does not get on furniture or my bed, I always go through doorways first, she always sits before she gets food, etc., but I will go through the NILIF stuff again and see if there is anything I am missing. I have been available to play today but when she does not want to or introduces the here is the ball, no you cannot have it because I am snatching it back, I have just been saying "OK if you don't want to play I am going inside" and then trying again an hour later. I have another ball the same so i will try the two ball twist tomorrow and report back. Thanks for your advice.

[squeak]

I really want us to get past this because I may have to go into hospital for a couple of weeks and we have never been parted that long. I will try and get someone to move in to look after her at home but if that is not possible I may need to send her on holiday to some friends with a sheep property.

I sit possible that she may have picked up on your anxiety about this???

[Perry's Mum]

Entirely possible but I am not sure what to do about it.

[Guest Pandii]

Can I sugest you dont teach your coolie to play keepers off unless your recall is rock solid

Personaly experience, although this is a fun game it can back fire on you, coolies are very smart as you know. My kids taught one of our dogs to play keepers off, and while its a great game, its damn annoying when they choose that over "come" they come close you go to touch them for what ever reason and they duck off.

I can gaurantee youwill not catch them, they can turn faster, run faster and are very clever as working out what you are going to do, think sheep work in reversal.

Not sure about the inside problem, I have Tyson who is nearly 3yo and he has stopped following me everywhere inside and prefers to lay on the couch. He is the one that plays keepers off, he is out of sorts, nothing I can put my finger on I just figure he is getting older and more secure.

Has anything changed at your house lately

[Perry's Mum]

I have been working longer hours which will come to a stop soon. The neighbours over the road (whom she adored) moved and she has decided she is not too keen on the new people. I am hoping that if I am home more we can get back to where we were and go back to the dog club more frequently.

[Vickie]

It sounds to me like something has happened as well. I would sit down & write a list of how many things have changed & whether these things were overnight or gradual & what time frame. Then work out whether they are location specific or you specific.

eg, she won't take treats from your hand. Is this only in your house?kitchen?backyard? local park? will she take them from a friends hand? will she take them if you turn away not facing her & deliver them from your hand behind your back?

Since the food from the hand would be the most worrying bit for me, I would probably work on that first.

It sunds to me like something has happened that you are unaware of. Does she sleep with you? For some dogs it could be something as simple as you rolling over at night & flinging your arm on her in your sleep...or an incident where you accidently trod on her & forgot about it.

Are you noticing any reaction to your hand? foot? facing her? bending over her?

I'm sure once you identify what makes her comfortable & what doesn't, you can work on getting her back to normal.

Good Luck, what a worry for you.

Edited November 11, 2007 by Vickie

[Perry's Mum]

Because Perry was very abused by her previous owner she has always cringed away from raised hands although she has never been hit by me and in fact gets lots of praise. She is not a dog who seeks cuddles from me although she will look for them from other people. I only ever get a cuddle at sheepdog school or if she comes to look after me during a thunderstorm. She sleeps in her own bed in another room. She is not strongly food motivated but previously if I called her she would come for a bit of cheese, but not any more. Perhaps she has decided that Brie is no longer her favourite. I am not aware of having stepped on her and she would let me know if I had. She has been kicked so often in the past that she keeps out of the way of feet.

I will experiment with different ways of offering treats and see how we go.

[Sarah L]

Perry's Mum I did not mean to offend you by asking if you had scolded or smacked your dog I was trying to find out why she would not trust your hands to take a treat from you. Now that you have explained the terrible past that Perry had before coming to you it makes things a lot clearer.

Some things have changed like you working longer hours her favorite neighbors moving away. Unable to go to the sheep work or dog club as often as you did etc... all these things could not be helped but may have had the effect of unsettling Perry. I think she needs some reassurance from you right now. What I mean by this is doing some exercises with her that helps her cope with changes in your lifestyle now and in the future.

Cringing from raised hands..... Part 1

I know you said she is not food motivated and I would definitely try what Vickie suggested about the different ways of giving food from your hand. But use a high value reward like cooked BBQ chicken or even raw steak and see what happens. Also when visitors come get them to give her a high value treat and get them to ask her to sit on greeting when they enter the house.

Cringing from raised hands Part 2

This part has to be done gradually without scaring the dog. Once Perry is good at trusting hands and taking food from them you move onto sitting on the floor and clapping your hands gentle and then offer a reward to her for staying near you. Once she is comfortable with gentle and not to loud clapping you can start to build it up to more noise and faster clapping. Also mix it up with firstly gently banging your hand on the floor and offering a reward for staying near you. Then build it up to banging hard on the floor and reward for staying near you.

I would certainly give Perry some things in life for free because she has been kicked so much in the past and stays away from feet and hands then this is not helping her to overcome this fear. When you are walking around the house I would leave a treat trail for her to follow. Also stand still and just drop a treat near your foot on the floor when she approaches to eat it say good girl. What we are doing is to get the dog to approach feet and hands and show the dog there is nothing to be frightened of. To me perry still has underlying fear issues that need to be addressed. What I have given you here is only the first couple of exercises in the program but they have to be done first before I can give you more. Any food you use in these exercises then that quantity must be removed from her feed bowl at meal time so say less bisquits because she has already had food in the exercises.

This all may seem a bit of an odd thing to do but it does work very well to help a dog overcome fear of feet and hands.

I hope you try it and let me know how you go.

[Perry's Mum]

I was not offended - I have seen the way some people treat their dogs. I am sure she still has some fear issues even after living with me for over 3 years. Thank you for the ideas, I will give it a go. Generally she has not been frightened of loud noises and it is only in really bad thunderstorms she comes to me with a look of "don't be frightened, I am here to look after you" on her face.

Cheese or possibly salmon are really the only high value food items that would tempt her and she is not as interested in cheese as she was in the past. Chicken and steak are just what she likes to have for dinner every day. She is my only dog and is a bit spoilt as far as food goes.

I am going to take her out to the dog club to play for a couple of hours now and we will see how we go.

[Sarah L]

Its not the noise factor I gave you the exercises for its the movemnt value of your feet and hands. I hope you catch this before you go out. If she won't give you the ball back try sitting on the ground and waiting take a book with you and pretend to read and ignore the fact she won't give you the ball. After a short time she should come up and drop the ball at your feet. Reward her and then throw it again. If this does not work try the 2 ball thing that erny said.

[Arya]

Perry's Mum, I am so with Erny on her comments!!!!!!!!!!!!!! One thing I can say and don't know if someone else has said it here as I haven't had time to read all the posts, is that as far as I am concerned, no toy is my dog's toy. That is it. It is not cruel, it is the law of the pack. All toys are mine, all food is mine, all fun comes from me, all games come from me, all in life that is good comes from me. My dog does have her own toys and so does my cat, they just don't know it. The dog knows not to touch the cat's toys when they are lying around and never does. Why? Because in her mind they are not the cat's toys, they are mine and I allow only the cat to play with them and only the dog to play with my toys I say she can. These rules may seem harsh but as Erny pointed out, you can't think anthropomorphic with a dog. It is security and stability for the dog which equals happiness for the dog. Now anyone who knows me and my dog knows that she can be a bugger and take a lend of me at the most inappropriate times and I am often called too soft with her, so I'm not saying I'm perfect by a long shot BUT, my advice to you would be to remove all toys from the garden. Start again. Start really nice. Lots of recall games with two balls or two hoses or two toys, whatever. You bring em out, you take em away again at the end. You can throw both as Erny said or you can go on an 'exchange program' where you swap the toy trophy for a bit of high value food. Then pack all away and go inside long before doggo wants to stop. Make yourself the 'fun centre' of the universe. Go for long walks together. Happy retrieval games galore. If Perry still doesn't want to play at all I definitely think a trip to the vet is in order. One other advice is, if Perry is thrilled to play at dog school and ignores you to be honest, forget about Perry needing to have a good time for a while at dog school. She's not a person, she's a dog. Take her out of herding school until she sees you as more fun than any other thing, dog school, other dogs, whatever. It's the kindest way in the long run. She needs you as her rock and fun thing in life more than dog herding school. Then when you have got her right with you in a few weeks, return to dog herding school If dog herding school is higher value than you, that is a problem (not saying it is, it's just something for you to think about)Hope this helps but as Erny says, people can only give you sort of qualified bits of advice as they aren't seeing you and the dog and something else might be going on.

Good luck!

[Perry's Mum]

OK we are back from the dog club where, as usual there were no problems - she was ecstatically happy to be there and kept bringing the ball back to me to throw - we left before she had had enough. Tomorrow we will try the garden.

[Sarah L]

Glad to hear things went well when you were out. Can I ask if at anytime while playing ball with her in the garden you grabbed her collar or fur to get the ball from her at some point. People do this all the time not to hurt the dog but just to catch the dog from running away. If you have then again I would say it would bring back the memory of her past and make her unsure of you. Anyway when you try tomorrow to play ball in the garden you can try what Erny suggests and what I suggested with ignoring and reading a book a least it will be a couple of things for you to try neither will hurt the dog in the process.