Puppy Not Learning Toilet Training

[Buster24]

Hi there

Just wondering if anyone has had this problem, as we are at the end of our tether, well and truly. Our pup has been trained using puppy training mats, was using them very well until about two weeks after she moved in here, now, for the last nearly two months, she has been peeing and pooing all over the house. She goes outside too, when she is put outside, but will then turn around and eat it, as well as trying to get into the kitty litter constantly!!!!!!

It appears like she's either being lazy or doing it for attention, as she does it on the cats beds, OUR DOONA, on the cat's scratching play toy, under the tv cabinet and under the dining room table, it's like she can't be bothered to move, to go and use the pad. Of a night time, she sleeps in our bedroom, and will walk to the pad which is about 5 metres down the hallway, and always manages it overnight!

Please, can anyone help? I am at breaking point on this topic! We are feeding her good food as well, so not sure why she is trying to eat a whole variety of poo! Also, our other dog, who is over a year old now, and has only once tried to eat cat poo before, when he was a very small pup, is now trying to eat cat poo again too, she is teaching him VERY bad habits!

[Erny]

What training steps have you been taking to teach her to toilet outside?

How long was she going outside without an accident occurring inside?

How old is your pup?

IS she getting attention for her 'mistakes'? Best to ignore her for the mistakes because they are actually usually OUR mistakes.

Has she ever been told off for toileting inside where she shouldn't?

She eats her faeces ONLY when she toilets outside?

What are you trying to teach your pup - to toilet outside?

Dogs are attracted to kitty litter. It is not good for them. Put the kitty litter tray out of her reach.

Moving house is a big deal for any dog. Your pup would have been disorientated with the new environment and assuming she is still only very young and hardly out of toilet training (if out of toilet training at all) and probably needed some guidance along the way in her new home.

Dogs will imitate - especially other dogs. But please don't make the mistake of comparing what one dog used to do (or not do) with another. Each dog is an individual and needs to be recognised as that.

I'm not a huge fan of toilet mats, newspaper etc. for toilet training. IMO it simply adds an extra step into the toilet training regime that you need to follow to teach her that you actually want her to go outside. Might as well have approached it straight away from that pov .... saves confusion for the dog later on as well, as the pup has been taught the idea that it IS ok to toilet inside the house (albeit that you intended for it to only be on a special mat).

From what brief information is available in your post, it sounds to me not that your pup is lazy or anything else ... it sounds as though she is simply confused and that toilet training might not have been as clear and consistant as it could have.

But answers to the questions in this post will help us help you to narrow down where and why your training is not going to plan.

Edited November 7, 2007 by Erny

[cavNrott]

Good post Erny. We don't know enough to be of much help. I agree with you also on the training pad issue.....useless IMO. All it does is teaches the pup that toileting inside the house is acceptable.

One thing I would like to add though is that putting the pup outside doesn't teach it much at all. You need to take the pup outside and stay with it until it obliges...then you praise like mad. It's our job to teach the pup.

[Erny]

Good post Erny. ... One thing I would like to add though is that putting the pup outside doesn't teach it much at all. You need to take the pup outside and stay with it until it obliges...then you praise like mad. It's our job to teach the pup.

Thanks cNr . And that's an excellent and important point you raise too.

Buster24 .... everytime you are not outside with your pup when she toilets is one more time you have missed an opportunity to train her.

[Buster24]

I have been taking her outside every hour or so and then bring her in for an hour or so. Every time she does it inside and it's not on her mat, I say no firmly, and take her outside, at night time, as she is only a very small dog and I don't want her to freeze out there, I say a firm no and take her to her mat again. When she does go on her mat, I give her a treat, but usually when she goes on her mat she gets it all around the mat and only a drop on it! When she goes outside and I see her do it, I also give her a treat then.

She is 19 weeks old now

As for the mistakes, I say a firm no to her, I don't punish her, I dont rub her nose in it, I just show her where she's done it and say no, and take her to her mat or outside if it's day time.

She doesnt get told off for toiletting inside, she gets shown it and told no. And no, she has also tried to eat her faeces while inside too, on the odd occasion.

Yes, I am trying to teach her to toilet outside, but as she is so small, I don't feel it's fair to have her outside of a night time to go to the toilet, she is a miniature dog, and she also freaks out in the dark.

The kitty litter tray is in the laundry for the cats to use, however as the back door is only accessible via the laundry, I am trying to teach her to go through the laundry without going near the litter tray, as she does need to learn. There is nothing I can do about where the kitty litter tray is placed, I cannot move it.

She has received nothing but attention since she got here, even though we have three other animals, to help her settle in, but I feel that she is now using this to her advantage.

I do agree on the mat thing, but I felt it might help her to ease into toilet training, and I am concerned about putting her outside of a night time. I do love having this dog, and have gone through the whole training rigmarole with her previously, and she has learnt it. However I do have to work as well, and I cannot be here every second of the day to praise her for going outside, I cannot take the five hours out of my day as I previously have to train her for god knows how long until she learns again! I am not looking for a quick fix, but I am frustrated, as my job is long hours and albeit long hours from home, it is my own business and I will start to lose business if I try this again.

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

Dogs don't speak English so saying things like "no" doesn't work for all. Dogs forget what they've just done within about 5 minutes so showing any dog an old mess just doesn't compute.

Housetraining methods should perhaps be a permanent sticky as I'm always posting this method here, it involves kindness and reward but will require you and all in the household to be:

CONSISTENT

If it doesn't work, it is usually a lack of consistency. I normally get a new foster dog on a Saturday morning, I concentrate on the process on the Saturday and Sunday and Monday morning, quite often they've got it by Monday evening.

Try this and let us know how you go please. I have had success with over 40 dogs in the last 4 years, of all ages from 1 to 12 years, including bad abuse cases.

HOUSETRAINING TIPS

Ok - first thing to do is decide on the command (I call it “do wees”) you will repeat over and over. You have to really focus on the dog for about 2-3 days to be successful. You have a pocketful of special treats on hand all the time for the first 2-3 days.

Walk the dog several times a day and every time the dog wees, you get very excited and keep saying “Good boy/girl, do wees, do wees” – give the dog treats every time.

First thing in the morning, last thing at night and every time you see the dog eat or drink (both precursors to weeing) whisk the dog into the garden and repeat the command “do wees”. Get very excited and present treats every time dog goes.

The dog’s aim in life is to please you. If the dog should have an accident inside the house – say NOTHING at all. The dog soon gets the idea that when he/she goes outside you are really, really pleased and he/she gets rewarded.

NB: Please note that the smell of urine must be properly removed for any housetraining to be successful. There are products on the market such as “Urine Off” but they are very expensive. A mix of white vinegar and water is a much cheaper alternative and should work for tiles and other surfaces although you should always take care with wood etc. For carpet/rugs, I use either a mixture of Napisan/water or bicarb of soda and water. I completely soak the stain using a dab on technique with a cloth. When it is very wet, I use an old towel to soak up the excess moisture. Again, be careful on any expensive carpet/rug, I have never had any problems but I cannot guarantee any method here.

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

And I don't believe she's either lazy or doing it for attention, I feel the poor little mite is very confused. She needs good and consistent direction as in my post above.

[persephone]

And I don't believe she's either lazy or doing it for attention, I feel the poor little mite is very confused. She needs good and consistent direction as in my post above.

ditto!

Maybe because she is a much-wanted and loved ,tiny little girl, she has perhaps been paid lots of attention for being absolutely gorgeous, and hasn't had to ;work' for her attention fix ?

[The Spotted Devil]

DM's advice is exactly how I house-trained my pup - it really, really works! No puppy pads either. It's fabulous when you are going out or need to put puppy to bed - one command and they're done

if you don't like saying 'wee wees' I use 'quick quicks!'

Edited: Because I am a spelling nazi

Edited November 12, 2007 by The Spotted Devil

[Erny]

As for the mistakes, I say a firm no to her, I don't punish her ....

If "no" is not perceived as a punishment, what's the point of it. In other words, perhaps your dog is perceiving it as a punishment because it is a sign of your disapproval.

IMO, pointing to the 'accident' and saying "no" to her is only telling her you do not like the mess that is there. She figures - "owner + soiling + dog = dog gets into trouble". So dog cleans up the mess (in the only way it knows how) by eating it. With the mess out of the equation, she figures she won't get into trouble.

If there is an accident inside the house, simply clean it up in her absence. And admonish yourself for not being there to have ushered her outside before the accident occured.

Yes, I am trying to teach her to toilet outside, but as she is so small, I don't feel it's fair to have her outside of a night time to go to the toilet, she is a miniature dog, and she also freaks out in the dark.

1. You get up through the night to take her outside. She toilets, you reward .... then you both return and go back to your respective beds.
   
2. If she freaks out in the dark, being a miniature dog is not the cause.
   

As I've mentioned earlier, I'm no fan of toilet mats etc. But, if you see this as a long term thing and WANT her to always know to go to her toilet mat, then that's what I'd be training for. Sounds confusing to me that sometimes you take her out, sometimes in. When you take her to her mat, have her on lead so you can keep her on the mat until she toilets. Perhaps even have the toilet mat inside a tray (similar to kitty litter tray) to give her some definitative area as her toilet?

Your toilet training of her is simply not complete - and I still can't help thinking that there are inconsistencies and unclear guidelines in your training that has created any delay in the success of your training.

Think as she would think - very simply. Make training clear - black and white. And above all, consistant.

The kitty litter tray is in the laundry for the cats to use, however as the back door is only accessible via the laundry, I am trying to teach her to go through the laundry without going near the litter tray, as she does need to learn. There is nothing I can do about where the kitty litter tray is placed, I cannot move it.

Why not? Is it nailed to the ground? Put it up on the washing machine or somewhere the cat can get to it.

You seem to have a lot of expectations about what your pup can learn all in one go. I'm even a little confused by it all! Change some things to make it easier for her.

She has received nothing but attention since she got here, even though we have three other animals, to help her settle in, but I feel that she is now using this to her advantage. [

As far as it relates to the toileting situation - I think she's just confused about what you want. Sometimes inside. Sometimes outside. Negotiate kitty litter tray (which is VERY attractive, by the way - BIG distraction to the training you want her to focus on). Left to own devises during the night ..... developes own habits (doesn't think they're wrong, because she really knows no difference).

I do agree on the mat thing, but I felt it might help her to ease into toilet training, and I am concerned about putting her outside of a night time.

You don't have to "put her out" as if to stay out. (see above)

I do love having this dog, and have gone through the whole training rigmarole with her previously, and she has learnt it. However I do have to work as well, and I cannot be here every second of the day to praise her for going outside, I cannot take the five hours out of my day as I previously have to train her for god knows how long until she learns again! I am not looking for a quick fix, but I am frustrated, as my job is long hours and albeit long hours from home, it is my own business and I will start to lose business if I try this again.

I have no doubt you love having your dog and I'm not judging you (I know what it's like to be very busy and in your own business - a previous business of mine at one stage saw me working 114 hours per week - I kid you not - for a stretch) and I do hear the frustration, but if not for a "quick fix" what are you looking for?

Where is she left during the day when you are out? And how long are you generally gone for at a time?

Edited November 7, 2007 by Erny

[Stewie_the_Frenchie]

we have just finished our third week of consistent outside toilet training with Turtle. Before, we had him go on the newspaper in his room - and I agree with erny, it's just another step in the way of the final goal.

We take him out every hour or so, or just after he's woken up or had a play. We stand there with him and say "toilet" in the same tone of voice every time. It didn't take long for him to work it out. It was interesting actually, the other day I was out there with him and he got distracted and as soon as I said the magic word, he went straight away. I think you probably need to be really direct and consistent with what you want her to do. Also, try making her wait until you go through the back door first (make her work for the things she wants - it does make a difference!).

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

Keep your dog away from the kitty litter - almost all dogs eat it. Re eating their own poo, try giving a little pineapple. Also, be more vigilant - be right behind her when she poops and pick up instantly - this will keep the flies down too.

By the way, I'd have to be one of the world's busiest people - I work full time and in my spare time, I work (unpaid) for Doggie Rescue and believe me - there could be at least 5 of me and that still wouldn't be enough.

Edited November 8, 2007 by dogmad

[Brox]

The kitty litter tray is in the laundry for the cats to use, however as the back door is only accessible via the laundry, I am trying to teach her to go through the laundry without going near the litter tray, as she does need to learn. There is nothing I can do about where the kitty litter tray is placed, I cannot move it.

I used to have the same problems with my dogs trying to eat cat poops, I fixed the problem by buying a 120 litre storage container( about $20 or less from cheap shops). I only have small dogs so they cant get into it but the kitty can because he's a kitty and can jump! and he doesn't kick out the litter anymore with the high sides. Easy fixed :rolleyes: good luck with your other problems.

[kymbo]

I have no answers as I am in the process of toilet training my pup, but I have a story to tell.

I bought one of those inside grass tray things ( dog loo?) for the puppy, and whenever he went elsewhere inside, I said no and placed him on the loo mat. I never could get him to 'go' on the loo mat. As he is a small breed, I wanted the loo mat as an allowable place to 'go' in case I was gone for a few hours during the day and he was inside.

Fast forward a few weeks, and he is getting pretty good with just letting himself outside now to go weewees, but if he does have an accident inside, he runs straight to the loo mat. In fact, whenever I say no to anything, he puts himself on the loo mat and just sits there.

I have inadvertantly made the loo mat a naughty corner.

[poodlefan]

Hi there

Just wondering if anyone has had this problem, as we are at the end of our tether, well and truly. Our pup has been trained using puppy training mats, was using them very well until about two weeks after she moved in here, now, for the last nearly two months, she has been peeing and pooing all over the house. She goes outside too, when she is put outside, but will then turn around and eat it, as well as trying to get into the kitty litter constantly!!!!!!

It appears like she's either being lazy or doing it for attention, as she does it on the cats beds, OUR DOONA, on the cat's scratching play toy, under the tv cabinet and under the dining room table, it's like she can't be bothered to move, to go and use the pad. Of a night time, she sleeps in our bedroom, and will walk to the pad which is about 5 metres down the hallway, and always manages it overnight!

Please, can anyone help? I am at breaking point on this topic! We are feeding her good food as well, so not sure why she is trying to eat a whole variety of poo! Also, our other dog, who is over a year old now, and has only once tried to eat cat poo before, when he was a very small pup, is now trying to eat cat poo again too, she is teaching him VERY bad habits!

What Erny said. Buster, precisely what ARE your 'rules' as to when and where you want your dog to toilet because I'm confused. She's not lazy, she's not doing it for attention. She's doing this because she's confused and the reason for that is the conflicting messages she's getting about what's acceptable.

You have taught her she can toilet in the house sometimes - using toileting mats teaches that. You say she doesn't have to go outside at night because she's too small (try a dog coat) and that reinforces that. As you place her outside and leave her there, you are missing opportunities to reinforce correct behaviour and simply saying no when she does the wrong thing and putting her out, is not a fast method of teaching her what the right thing is.

When you cannot supervise her you need to have something established so that she cannot toilet where you don't want her to. Where do you leave her when you're out?

Sorry to be a bit harsh, but the responsiblity for this behaviour lies with you, not the dog. You are reaping the results of confusing and inconsistant training. You're not alone - this happens to lots of people. You need to start over.

Sit down and figure out exactly what you want her to learn. Choose ONE place as the correct place to toilet. Take her outside (if that's where you want her to toilet) after eating, after play, and when she wakes, regardless of the hour. Praise and reward for the correct behaviour.

Move the cat litter to the bathroom or off the floor. It's like leaving a packet of lollies for a dog to sample - dogs love cat poo but it's not good for them. You're other dog probably never paid much attention to the litter tray but now he knows what's in it, he will. Immediate removal of poo from the tray would lessen the attraction.

You don't have too much longer before you're going to end up with a dog with a long term issue about toilet training. A couple of weeks of consistent messages WILL get the result you desire.

[toydogs]

Hi,

been reading the posts with interest. I do agree be totally totally consistant with your puppy. any diviation will confuse a puppy. in any training not just house training.

also, after watching the methods on "its me or the dog" and actually trying them and notice she trained 4 little chihuahuas quite successfully, the first thing Victoria did was get the owner to get rid of the urine smell where the dogs have been.

then the owner took them out every half hour or so, and after watching the dog inside like a hawk everytime they went to raise their legs to pee, she clapped or i have used a whistle to get their attention, the dog usually goes, gees whats that and totally forgets that they are about to pee. i tried it on one of my adult males and it indeed works... combined with a firm no. then take outside.

i think maybe at 5 months old almost, it is probably time to teach them to go outside only as the puppy pads you have laid down is confusing your pup, they don't know whether they are allowed to go inside or outside. or both. so give them one message and one message only.

my little ones, when i have them inside i watch them especially the younger ones as they can't hold their bladder forever so there are going to be accidents, then of a night i put them in a little carry cage the ones we use for airlines. airline carrier. perhaps get yourself one of these for the night. they have to get use to being locked in one for a whole night, but as soon as they get the message they are fine. we always say this trains them to hold their bladder eventually as they don't want to mess in their own bed. no dog or puppy does! we take them out before bed and as soon as they wake up in the morning. they are straight outside so they get the message. ofcourse we don't do this to young puppies, say under 16 weeks or so, they are too young for that method they will never be able to hold it for that long and they are still babies, but 4 months or over i start this type of training. this is for toy dogs only not bigger breeds of dogs as they take longer to mature. at 5 months for a toy dog they are almost mature. have about 3 or 4 months to go.

is your dog a toy dog? i am getting the hunch that they might be. they are harder to train for some reason, having had much bigger breeds and also had friends with first chis then dobs. they take a while to catch on completely.

good luck

Edited November 12, 2007 by toydogs

[toydogs]

i also need to ask, when you say no firmly does the puppy take notice of you?

if they don't know that they are doing wrong and don't know they are being growled at, it makes it so much harder, they don't know they are actually doing wrong. I call this conditioning the dog for training. I've rescued quite a few adult dogs ranging from 5 to 10 yrs old and they all have been housetrained and some of them were male dogs. that had spent their whole life in a kennel environement with no training at all. at the moment i have a kelpie cross boy that was 8 months old and had no formal house training so i completed his training and now he stays in the house and leaves the house clean when i come back. he is now trained.

but you need to get them every time they pee for them to catch on, usually with our young ones, you grab them half way through (bit of a mess) and put straight out and they sort of get agitated and you can see that they know they've done wrong. you need to catch them right in the act too. as probably many have told you. if you catch after they have a memory span of only a couple of minutes not even that.