Puppy Putting Children Into Tears

[chloebear]

I am not sure how to really word this one. Holly is a rescue pup, 4 months old, was very timid still is with strangers and other dogs. I know no details of her breed (large dog vet guess fully grown about 35-40 KG )but she was very badly neglected and abused. She has made a very strong bond with my two year old son we guess this is due to him being smaller making her feel safe, they play together he throws the ball etc for her and she follows him around. She has started to mouth him in the last couple of weeks but now it is getting harder bringing him to tears. She has also started to jump on my four year old daughter, plus some mouthing also putting her into tears. The children are never left unattended with Holly, I am always outside with them. To try to reduce the jumping I let Holly out of her kennel in the morning before kids go outside plus play ball with her for about 10 minutes to try to reduce her energy levels and exictment.

My son is gets a allergic reaction to dog silvia on his face - not a serious harmful reaction but red, itchy blotching but with a warm bath he is fine. So this is especially why I need to get on top of this mouthing and jumping. If my son knocked over by Holly's jumping she starts to like him on the face etc - which I am sure is being done as a sign of affection.

It may seem crazy that we have gotten a dog considering my sons reaction, but it only affects him if licked on face and chest. He is always outside with shirt on, plus we had taught our previous dog not to lick on face.

Any advice is welcome and yes I am more than happy to put the time in to work with Holly...............she is an important part of our lives.

[The Spotted Devil]

Hi chloebear - you'll get loads of advice I'm sure but I'll just tell you about my experience with a very strong willed, boisterous pup - the best decision I ever made with young Zig was to NOT have full on games of fetch - I tend to think it just hypes puppy up and gets them more silly. Everything was calm, calm, calm - no yelling "NO!" - just calm, firm "Steady". He always has different toys and he gets loads of praise for playing with them on his own. I also use the toys as training rewards......if I do throw a toy for him, he has to sit or drop or stand for a few seconds or do a proper stay. Make puppy use that brain!!! Never to early to teach some clicker work, either Make pup work for everything! Plus fetch games aren't that great for a large breed puppy's hips - so you need to get puppy mentally tired....the physical bit will look after itself.

I've no experience with rescue dogs but I have heard it said that it is best not to fall in the trap of feeling sorry for abused or neglected dogs but just to treat them like a 'normal' dog - not to say don't work on any issues of course but just to be positive and not to let them get away with things because you feel sorry for them. I hope that helps - good luck!

[chloebear]

the best decision I ever made with young Zig was to NOT have full on games of fetch - I tend to think it just hypes puppy up and gets them more silly. Everything was calm, calm, calm - no yelling "NO!" - just calm, firm "Steady". He always has different toys and he gets loads of praise for playing with them on his own. I also use the toys as training rewards......if I do throw a toy for him, he has to sit or drop or stand for a few seconds or do a proper stay. Make puppy use that brain!!! Never to early to teach some clicker work, either Make pup work for everything! Plus fetch games aren't that great for a large breed puppy's hips - so you need to get puppy mentally tired....the physical bit will look after itself.

I never thought of that!!! Plus I have no idea of what her hips are like genetically

[Poodle wrangler]

Problem hips are thought to be a combination of genetics (crossbreeds will have no hip testing), exercise and diet.

General advice for large breeds is not to overexercise- shorter walks, avoid jumping up and down off lounges etc. Basically avoid anything that's hard on growing bones. Diet-wise- you want slow, steady growth, so normal high protein puppy formulas aren't suitable. There are large breed formulas, or even an adult one would be preferable. Brisket bones etc. for calcium.

Can you take her to obedience? She should be old enough now.

Have to train her not to jump up on anyone. Not to lick anyone etc. Being consistent makes it easier for her to learn.

Totally agree with The Spotted Devil- Rescues need more firmness (firm, but fair, not harsh) and consistency than the average dog. Worst thing to do is "spoil" a rescue because you feel sorry for them.

[chloebear]

Problem hips are thought to be a combination of genetics (crossbreeds will have no hip testing), exercise and diet.

General advice for large breeds is not to overexercise- shorter walks, avoid jumping up and down off lounges etc. Basically avoid anything that's hard on growing bones. Diet-wise- you want slow, steady growth, so normal high protein puppy formulas aren't suitable. There are large breed formulas, or even an adult one would be preferable. Brisket bones etc. for calcium.

Can you take her to obedience? She should be old enough now.

Have to train her not to jump up on anyone. Not to lick anyone etc. Being consistent makes it easier for her to learn.

Totally agree with The Spotted Devil- Rescues need more firmness (firm, but fair, not harsh) and consistency than the average dog. Worst thing to do is "spoil" a rescue because you feel sorry for them.

Sadly I can't take her to obedience because of our location, childcare issues and husband working away. I think it is time that I contact K9 for some help and guidence, I read on his website about external correspondence courses, has anyone tried one?

[chloebear]

grhh - one of those days whilst reading this thread, my son just fingered painted the bathroom with his sisters blueberry bash toothpaste. Seems to be the only person who can't open the childproof locks is me!

[Poodle wrangler]

I haven't done a K9 Force correspondence course, but I bought a step-by-step book and followed that for my older dog.

There's a wealth of info. here and on links to get you started.

Start with K9's Triangle of Temptation http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=64101.

Print it out and do it EXACTLY as suggested. Practice beforehand without a dog. I did this as the steps took a while to sink into my brain .

Well worth the effort!

Consistency, routine and firm but kind leadership is really important for dogs, much like kids .

[dee lee]

Hi Chloebear-

My dog was like this with my kids (3 and 4.5). we HAD to stop the littlies from being silly round her, made them understand that if they squeal and runs the dog chases, and if they roll on the floor they get licked. AND we roused on the dog every time she did it too (cause the kids dont listen!!! ). Finally the dog seems to have stopped (mostly ). it seemed sad to have to stop the play but i think that our dog felt they were other puppies and not in charge of her- this is NOT a good idea. Your dog will get a lot bigger a lot quicker than your son- She needs to see him as higher up in the pack.

Ive read a couple of your posts and it sounds like you may be on a similar path to me. My pups a rescue too, if you are having trouble now you are right to get on top of it. She was quite submissive when we got her and it didnt take long for her to get her confidence after being in a happy family environment- now we are having a hell of a time with her.

Thank god for DOL

Good luck,

Dee

[Gayle.]

My young Aussie pup was a jumper....he drove me nuts and I thought that giving him loads of exercise would wear him out....it didn't, it just made him hyper! So then I started to make him sit for absolutely everything....sit for pats, sit for treats, sit for hello, sit for coming in the door, sit for going out the door........anything at all, he had to sit for. Now he rarely jumps! Cos he knows he has to sit, sit, sit. And it's so easy to do.

[sas]

Your puppy has entered into what is known as the Rank & Shaping period, read more about it here: http://www.k9force.net/index.html?row2col2=develop.html

You need put this puppy back into its' place pronto, biting & jumping is the dog showing you disrespectful behaviour which it wouldn't dream of doing to a leader.

[chloebear]

The kids and I have just been outside for our afternoon play. I have noticed that Holly mouths my son (2yr old) mainly when he is running, as he flaps his arms around. Holly also jumped on my daughter 4.5yr ripping a hole in her dress. So whilst the kids where playing I put Holly onto her leash and walked around the yard with her (learning to walk on leash) we followed the kids around so that way she was still envolved in watching the kids play but unable to jump on them. Once the kids where finished running around we practice our sit, come and give commands.

[chloebear]

Thank god for DOL

Yep, I would be lost without DOL - Thanks to all of you wonderful people that keep on helping me, trust me it is appreciated. I have learnt so many things since becoming a member of this forum.............

[chloebear]

You need put this puppy back into its' place pronto, biting & jumping is the dog showing you disrespectful behaviour which it wouldn't dream of doing to a leader.

How do I do this, so that the puppy recognises not only me, but also the kids as it's leader - Kids are 2 &4

[Gayle.]

I will probably get seriously flamed for this, but I would suggest having the pup fitted with a head halter, and learn to use it gently....no tugging at her while she's wearing it, just keep her on a very short leash. Bouncy pups are VERY easy to control when they're wearing a halter, and once you've got her used to it, supervise the kids very closely while they walk her on the leash with the head halter on.

Once they can comfortably walk her a short way, they can start to give her basic commands such as sit and heel. Maybe not the 2yo, but definitely the 4yo. The head halter will put the child in control, the basic commands will show puppy that they are in charge, not her.

The reason for the head halter is that (no matter what anyone says) they are the easiest way to get a rambunctious dog under control and keep it that way and if you go about it firmly but gently, you can take charge quite quickly.

[Poodle wrangler]

Chances are the pup will not see 2 and 4 year olds as leaders any time soon . They're too small, voices too high-pitched, body language very different to an adult human.

I'd simply separate dogs and kids until pup is trained to sit, come (to you, instead of chasing kids) and NOT jump up etc.

You shouldn't have pup ripping dresses and mouthing a 2 year old. It's natural because your toddler is waving his arms, but still shouldn't be allowed. A 2 year old just doesn't understand. I have trouble telling a 9 year old not to play chasing games with our pup- he was encouraging him to mouth. Your pup does that to someone else's kid and they say, "the dog bit me" and you have major problems.

Just don't put pup and kids in the situation in the first place.

Large breed pups will knock over toddlers only due to size and your kids have to come first.

My pup is now 25kg and 10 months old and pulled over my 9 year old holding his leash months ago. Your pup will be bigger.

Find games the kids can safely play with the dog (nothing comes to mind, brain frazzled)..

[Erny]

Generally speaking Head Collars are not recommended for dogs under the age of 6 months. You need to know how to fit and use a head-collar properly to avoid harm to your dog.

Your dog is showing signs of its perception of being a higher ranking animal than your children are. You need to exhibit leadership - this is most often established by setting boundaries and guidelines and ensuring your dog works within them. Also by being in control of valuable resources.

Without knowing your dog and your family it is remiss to advise what to do over the net - as even the most basic of leadership exercises can result in challenges by a dog upon 'its humans'. A responsible trainer/behaviourist ordinarily would not do or advise anything unless they are self-assured that the possible side-affects will be capably and safely managed.

However, one of the thing you could do in relative safety is to follow the NILIF program. This stands for "Nothing In Life Is Free" and is simply where you have your dog do something for you first, before you do something for your dog.

Your children are only 2 and 4 year olds. They are babies themselves. So you need to teach everyone (the dog included) how to interact around each other. Given that they are all babies, you (as leader to them all and bearing the role and responsibility as 'protector') must be right there to supervise .... ie IMMEDIATELY on hand.

You can use the TOT program exercise and can include your children in that. For safety reasons, holding your child in your arms during the exercise raises them to a height beyond that of the dog and increases safety. That your child is with you assists in lending a perception that they too are involved in the exercise. When your dog has an understanding of what is expected of him (ie learns the exercises you are teaching him) you could then, with immediate and direction supervision of your children, begin to have them give the commands (and releases) to your dog.

But the overall thing here is that YOU be the dog's leader and that YOU control all interactions between the dog and your children.

Edited November 3, 2007 by Erny

[chloebear]

When we where outside this afternoon, I noticed that the moment my son (2yr) was a little distance from me that Holly would race over to him then and start the mouthing, when he is directly beside me so doesn't do anything. A couple of times I saw her going towards him, so I called he name and she imediately stopped and layed on the ground (I feel more timid response to loud voice than obiedence). I don't know if this will help, but I have started to put her on the patio (outside) near our dinner table, so she can she the kids and I having our dinner before she gets her. One thing I can definately promises everyone who reads this thread is that my children are never ever outside without my supervision.

[Erny]

Hope you rewarded your dog for at least stopping . You can train your dog for desired behaviour in response to certain actions by your kids. For example .... your two year old cries - unless he's really hurt and needs your absolute immediate attention, rather than rushing over to him call your dog over to you, fuss your dog (reward; treat; quick play; whatever ...) and then tend to your son.

You can apply this philosophy (which in effect is a bit of reverse thinking on your part) to many other things/occasions - such as when the kids start playing, call the dog to you.

Train your dog to give you the response of coming to you when your kids do certain things.

Of course, to achieve this it relies on you making sure that your dog receives high value reward to have made it completely worthwhile leaving the kids for. Begin training with easy things first (ie actions by the children that are not too interesting or of value to your dog).

You could perhaps engage your kids to help in this training. Frequent but short training sessions are what are required - so this should suit the kids too. You could perhaps start by getting them to pretend to cry, and then YOU call your dog over. Your end goal of this training is for your dog to come to you whenever she hears either of them cry.

The technical term for this is "counter conditioning".

Edited November 3, 2007 by Erny

[chloebear]

Hope you rewarded your dog for at least stopping . You can train your dog for desired behaviour in response to certain actions by your kids. For example .... your two year old cries - unless he's really hurt and needs your absolute immediate attention, rather than rushing over to him call your dog over to you, fuss your dog (reward; treat; quick play; whatever ...) and then tend to your son.

You can apply this philosophy (which in effect is a bit of reverse thinking on your part) to many other things/occasions - such as when the kids start playing, call the dog to you.

Train your dog to give you the response of coming to you when your kids do certain things.

Of course, to achieve this it relies on you making sure that your dog receives high value reward to have made it completely worthwhile leaving the kids for. Begin training with easy things first (ie actions by the children that are not too interesting or of value to your dog).

You could perhaps engage your kids to help in this training. Frequent but short training sessions are what are required - so this should suit the kids too. You could perhaps start by getting them to pretend to cry, and then YOU call your dog over. Your end goal of this training is for your dog to come to you whenever she hears either of them cry.

The technical term for this is "counter conditioning".

We will start new training plan tomorrow. I must admit, when Holly stopped going towards my son I didn't give her enough praise or postive reforencement (error on my part). Erny, I throw ball for Holly to chase at least two sessions a day, should I stop this and mainly do calmer things with her.

[Erny]

Erny, I throw ball for Holly to chase at least two sessions a day, should I stop this and mainly do calmer things with her.

I need to leave this to your judgement - having never had the opportunity to meet your dog myself. You need to work out what is the highest reward to her. This might be a ball being thrown (although my preference is for not throwing). It might be a piece of cooked chicken. It might be a game of tug.

Once you've worked out Holly's favourite motivator, then yes .... I'd keep this for those 'special' training sessions. You can use lesser value activities for other occasions. But remember to have her do something for you first - before you begin play. And remember that YOU should be the one who decides when play concludes.

Also remember - sometimes "high value reward" changes. Eg. You might think it is cooked chicken .... but on a day or time that she is not hungry, a game of tug might be the preferred reward.